The Wild Truth About Leading Retreats w/ Alasdair Plambeck
In this episode, I interview the co-founder of Wild Within, an organization that has been leading retreats since 2019. We go deep into retreats 101, from the preparation, programming, and backend finances. This is jam-packed with high-level and practical advice you can apply, whether you already run retreats or see it as a future dream. Alasdair is one of my best friends, and I cannot wait to share his wisdom with you all!
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Podcast Transcript
Lou: Welcome to another episode of the Art and Business of Meditation podcast. I am your host, Lou Redmond, and today is an incredibly special podcast because first off, this is the first time I am doing a live interview on the podcast. Right now we are coming to you from Lake Atitlan in beautiful Guatemala. We are recording in between two twin beds on a DJI wireless microphone. So we are really bare bones here and I wouldn't have it any other way. On the show today, I have a dear friend, Alistair Plambeck. Alistair is a psychedelic practitioner and retreat leader. He is the founder of an organization called Wild Within. I should say co founder of an organization called Wild Within. And Alistair has been a friend for probably 10 years now. And I met Alistair through a mastermind group that I first joined. He actually became a co founder of that mastermind group. And if you've listened to my podcast, you know how much I love masterminds and you probably heard me talk about this group a bunch of times. And so our lives have intertwined in the last 10 years and it's been quite a beautiful journey. Alistair runs Wild within with my wife to be Kellyanne and his wife Julie, Roxanne. And I'll just kind of share a little bit of my experience of Wild Within. I used to be a part of the group. It was once called Ripple Out Retreats. And over the years I've facilitated on different retreats and as things evolved, I have stepped fully away from it. And I actually, we just got off of one of their retreats in San Marcos, Guatemala. And speaking as a full participant on that retreat, Alistair, it was one of the most profound and healing retreats I've ever been on. And so well organized and crafted. And to be transparent, two of these nights was a psychedelic. We did psilocybin for. For two nights in Ceremony. And just the way that it was set up and prepared and integrated was deeply healing and I was blown away. So I thank you and the work you're doing because it has had a huge impact on my life and I'm excited to talk to you today about all things retreats. So that's my intro. I've been speaking a lot, so I'll just let you guys hear Alistair's voice for a moment and say welcome.
Alasdair: Yeah, thank you. Thanks for having me here and I appreciate that really kind introduction and it's been really fun having you as a participant this time around.
Lou: Yes.
Alasdair: Yeah. And sitting in between these two beds. Uh, I used to. I used to also host a podcast and it reminds me of times where I was pretty crazy about sound and I would actually create a fort under the kitchen table and we would podcast under the table sometimes to. For sound reasons.
Lou: You guys are legit. I'm. I'm sorry, I'm not as Alastair was like, we have some things on the side of the beds. Hey, do you want to take these down and make it a little bit more soundproof? I was like, I don't even care. Like, well, Lester, my audio engineer, if you're listening to this, hopefully he does his best and the energy comes through. So Alistair and his wife Julie, Roxanne, had a podcast you ran for four or five years?
Alasdair: Four and a half years, yeah.
Lou: Called the Far Out Podcast. It has an amazing stories, an immense library of a lot of things, especially if you're interested in the psychedelic world. I know you've interviewed a lot of practitioners and have had a lot of conversations around that. So a plug there before we get into our topic, which, again, I think retreats. So many people in the wellness world, they have this dream of, I want to run retreats.
Alasdair: Right.
Lou: I want to do my yoga, I want to do meditation. I want to have people. We want to go to a beautiful destination and, you know, have a crazy experience. And, you know, I've talked to a mentor that I have, and he would tell me that retreats is like, the last thing you should focus on. Like, focus on building an audience, focus on live, smaller offers. Because for people to trust you, to not only give you a good sum of money, but to leave their home to get on a plane to travel to some exotic destination, it's a big ask. And so just to put us back into your original why of why did you start leading retreats? And why did you just start with that? Take us back to that early. That early start.
Alasdair: Yeah, I think you're. You're. Whoever you're getting your advice from is right. We did it ass backwards, and we've always wondered why we made it so hard for ourselves. And we're now trying to develop some of those other, other things where. Where this started for me. I'm gonna give two answers and I won't give the full story because it would take forever. But I think the seed of this started for me in 2015 when I went to Peru and I had probably the most significant. And I know life changing is an overused word, but it really was dramatic, the impact it had on my life. I went on a ayahuasca retreat down in Peru with Tribe, and it was a Three. It was pretty short. It was only three days, but kind of it blew things wide open. And it also demolished my old life almost overnight. And so I think the seed of like, wow, retreats can be really, really powerful was there. And why I started leading retreats, that was. That started around 2018. And I had been traveling alone for a while and I got really into backpacking. And so backpacking is kind of walking through wilderness, usually for days at a time, long distances, usually in mountain wildernesses and things like that. And I was really enjoying doing that. And I kind of quickly realized that I had lost connection with nature and I started to feel more and more like myself. And this was in a period where I was pretty lost. I was asking a lot of questions and all that. And I just kept coming back to. I started in Scotland and I ended up in all sorts of places. I was backpacking through Romania, Georgia, the country, not the state.
Lou: It's cool to backpack through Georgia, the state too. I'm sure it's beautiful.
Alasdair: Yeah, yeah. The Himalayas in India and Nepal and High Sierras, all these places. And I just fell in love with it. And I was learning so much about myself. It was so therapeutic and it was so healing. And I couldn't believe it took me this long to come to this, but sometimes I'm kind of slow. So that's that experience of backpacking through a lot of these different wildernesses and what it did for me and how it re established my connection with the wild. That's initially what I really wanted to share with others. And your fiance? Kellyanne was trying to lead a retreat to Yosemite, So I called her. I called you two up and said, hey, do you guys want to do this? And it was kind of an audacious plan because I had never guided anyone through wilderness, but I had guided myself quite a lot. And I felt like I could do it. So. So we offered a retreat. It was a 10 day retreat, six days going through the Yosemite wilderness. And it worked. We got a full group and able to do it. And that's where it started. So the why there was really like, okay, I have started cultivating this relationship with nature and it's been extraordinarily profound and healing and all the things. And I wanted to start sharing that with other people and share what I. I loved. So.
Lou: So Kellyanne was running retreats at the time. She had done one in Peru, she had done one in India. So Alistair kind of had a sense that she had already started doing this and then brought in this idea which just for people listening, not only to start a retreat business can be challenging, but to like rest start it in the most complex way. Running a backpacking trip. Yeah, the logistics, the logistics of getting people, equipment, getting people into, you know, Yosemite is not like the easiest place to get to. Just getting everyone on a bus, getting everyone everything little thing they need from their poop shovels to their backpacks to all the things just so you not only started with something difficult, but you started with like probably even crazier logistics thing to start.
Alasdair: And we had to get sanctioned by, by Yosemite national park, which is not particularly easy because they're associated with the federal government. And we also had to get, you know, wilderness first aid trained and. But I did have a sense that Kellyanne probably had the network. And if you're starting retreats, you, that's the question you really got to answer is like, who, okay, who's going to bring the people in? Where are they going to come from? And I knew that wasn't going to be me.
Lou: So, so building that's the thing. It's like having that trust and such a unique thing. I mean, I'm grateful to be, to have been a part of that because backpacking necessarily might not be the first thing I go to do or it for a lot of people. And I think this was a lot of your intention. You wanted to give people an introduction where maybe they could do this on their own. It's like you get to be a catalyst in some way.
Alasdair: Yeah. I was like, okay, let's take them out there and let's give them like a 10 out of 10 experience. Like I. My heart is in the High Sierras in Yosemite. It's a beautiful place, especially when you get into the backcountry. And so one part of the intention was like, okay, let's give them just a mind blowing experience, which is not hard to do. You just take them to Yosemite. Like you don't have to do anything else. You know, 70 will do the rest. And through this we were aiming it at people who had little or maybe no backpacking experience. It was a pretty challenging track. It's like 50 miles. It was quite a lot of elevation up and down and, and like for someone who's maybe not even spent a night alone in the wilderness, spending five nights out there is challenging. There's just a lot of, a lot of things you don't take into account that you get out there. Like, oh, okay. So it was like, yeah, let's give them some experience. Because if they start to cultivate this relationship via us, like, we're guides, right? We're helping them cultivate a relationship in nature, they may feel like, yeah, maybe they don't feel like they can do this when they go home, but they might feel like they can go do two nights out in their local wilderness. And that was true for a lot of people. So. So that. That was also the intention.
Lou: So some people would say, like, okay, let's do this one trip. Great. We did this trip. Like, when did it become okay, this is a company. I'm gonna keep doing more of this. Like, how does that continue?
Alasdair: Yeah. One other intention we had before I answer this question was like, we had been. We were pretty into the Hero's Journey, Joseph Campbell's work, and that had been pretty helpful for me. And we had this question of, like, okay, how do we bring, like, a psychological component to the. To the journey of going through Yosemite? That was really interesting to me at the times. Like, how do we match these two together? Because I think what, you know, Joseph Campbell's talking about and outlining you can directly relate to it and experience it when you're on your own journey into the unknown. Right. Which is what you're always doing when you go into the wilderness. And so where there is a fascination about, how do we do that. And while wilderness backpacking trips are very difficult to organize logistically, which I felt fairly comfortable with, although at times I was asking myself, what the hell am I doing? This is really ridiculous, and I have no business doing this. There's. There wasn't a lot of programming. Like, we didn't have to offer a lot of personal skills other than, like, okay, I need to know the wilderness and the backpacking. So in some ways, it was an easy first retreat to do, just because a lot of it was, we're going to walk through nature. All right? So.
Lou: And we did have programming. I was doing some meditation. Like, we were having, you know, some more intentional conversation. So there was kind of like the noble silence, which was beautiful to. For, you know, to walk with people in nature and not, you know, feel the pressure to speak and really enjoy that silence together. So, yeah, that was. That was really beautiful. So great experience. But how does this become. Okay, this is now flag in the ground, what we're doing?
Alasdair: Yeah, it. So it started as Ripple out retreats, and I think we knew we wanted to keep doing it, and we had planned to do it the next year. So I think as soon as we finished that first retreat was like, whoa, this is pretty cool. The experiences people had. I mean, if you've been on retreats like that, it's just there's the kind of community and connection that develops, and it's. It's pretty special. I kind of refer to it as when it's done well, it's like sacred time versus profane time. Right? There's this. There's a sense of almost like the eternal, and there's like, the sense that, you know, real shifts can happen on these things. And, yes, we have to bring it back into the real world and all that, but so I think pretty quickly we're like, yeah, let's. Let's try to make this happen again. And I think you were asking how it progressed into. So we rebranded a couple years in to Wild within. And I think that's when the vision started to really. The early vision was like, okay, let's. Let's try to get a retreat company off the ground. And we did that. And then after that, I was like, okay, well, what are we actually doing? Who is this for? What's the. What's the, like, spirituality or philosophy behind this? Because for us, it was always more than just leading retreats to beautiful places or things like that. And I think in the beginning, we didn't really have that skill set. And building a retreat company kind of forced us personally, each of us, to go out and start to attain that skill set and be like, okay, well, what are we trying to do here? What do we want to do here? So over the next few years, all of us, in our own different ways, started pursuing a fair amount of training. And that training influenced a lot of what Wild within became for me. That training that, like, the things that have really influenced that is my studies in Amazonian shamanism and working with ayahuasca and also working with combo. I started studying with teachers back in 2020. And so that what we would call medicine work, that. That perspective started to really inform what we were doing in our wilderness backpacking trips. Because I could see that the same way you can think of a psychedelic like psilocybin or ayahuasca. These. You can think of them as medicine, or at least there is a perspective like this. Wilderness can be medicine, too. And I realized that's exactly what. What it had been. So that had influenced it a lot, as well as other schools of thought. I started. I started following Anima's Institute, which was founded by Bill Pawkin. He's. He was a. He's like a Nature based depth psychologist and he leads vision fasts and vision quests and what he calls the descent to soul. And I was seeing a lot, I was very inspired by what he was talking about and I was seeing how our views, it was informing our views quite a lot and we were kind of aspiring to, to work on similar cultural problems or address similar cultural pain points that I saw that Bop Watkin was addressing with animas. So I went on a vision quest and studied with him quite a lot. And also in the last couple years started training as a somatic psychotherapist with the Hakomi Education Network up in Seattle and bringing that in. So like as kind of this like, I don't know, it's like the retreats would kind of take a step forward and then we'd realize the ways we were limited or couldn't quite do what we envisioned or like where the vision was lacking and then we would take a step forward and then we try to like, you know, bring that into the retreats. And so there it was this kind of beautiful, it's been this really beautiful dialogue that's like as Wild within has grown and kind of taken shape and matured, it's forced us to grow and like kind of bring in more skills and this kind of back and forth.
Lou: I love how you take in kind of the, what you have learned kind of move through yourself. And it's almost like the retreat gets to be in some ways a canvas to paint and of how do I bring in this element and that element. And I was a witness of all of these. I've also been on an animus retreat and got to see kind of how you wove some of that into this, this current retreat that we're talking about. And then you know, watching you as a comey in training and kind of develop some of seeing some of those skills and how that works around, we would do a thing called council where different people would share and then you kind of, you know, work with them in that way and I can see how it really fits in nicely with the overall arc. And so before we kind of talk about the back end side of how that journey has been on your end, I think a lot of people here who maybe they just run workshops, maybe they run a retreat, maybe they want to run a retreat. Like how programming started as just the medicine of hiking and backpacking. And so I guess any words of like how you think about programming and you might have just said it in kind of what you shared, but in how someone might think of how do I bring programming, whether it's through my workshop or retreat, that feels true or authentic or supportive.
Alasdair: I think for me, it's been really fun to watch the programming evolve. And it's like we're taking it from a lot of places that, that we're trying to emulate and that a lot of places we're studying with and actively participating with. And so I would say one thing. If you're going to lead retreats, just like anything else, one of the best things to do is go on other people's retreat retreats. And, and because. But because one of the powers of retreats, and this goes back to my early intentions, is there, especially in this day and age, it's like there's such a power in coming together, right? And there's also power, I think, in bringing people from a lot of different places and perspectives and together, because I think we're really lacking this and feeling the pain of not doing that, Having diverse points of view and perspectives and. And just the sacredness of having all of our bodies in the same place and all that. That. That's expensive, right? It costs a lot. It costs like, the time off as well. The effort to travel, like getting here to Guatemala is hard. So when everyone. There's already so much set up by the time everyone shows up in the space, because it's like you. You're saying with your body, this is. I. This is important enough for me to be here. And I think there's a presence that we can sometimes realize on a retreat that's hard to realize in, you know, our everyday life or on Zoom or things like this. There's an intensity to it. So coming back to. Coming back to the programming, so that. That's to say, like, go experience that for yourself and see what's like really speaking to you. That's what I was. That's what I was doing. And I think where the programming has come for me is from a deep longing and also a deep pain. I think it comes from the places in the culture that I. I feel most painfully. And I think it's also coming from what I imagine could be possible. And, and what I. And I like what you said about it being a canvas, sometimes it does feel like that. It's like when it's at its best, it's like, what a beautiful opportunity and privilege and responsibility. But, like, people are like, hey, I'm going to come, and we get to decide. We get to take them through an experience or a journey and we can craft that. And there's so much detail to that and it can be so much fun. So much fun and so, so beautiful. On the other side of it being a canvas sometimes it's also felt like a mirror, uh, and kind of showing me like where a lot of my own some like shadow aspects or in, or places where I'm not really in alignment or in integrity A lot of times I think looking at Wild within has taught me a lot about where, where I'm falling out of alignment or where, where there's like more that I need to kind of, kind of do or maybe some deeper searching. It's, it's kind of, in a lot of ways it's felt like an extension of me and when it's not working, I also have to look at that part about it and why that might be and what my role in it is.
Lou: Can you share an example?
Alasdair: Yeah. So a cut. Let's see. We're about. We led a retreat in Guatemala two years ago. So that was 2022 or it was like New Year's Eve. So it went into 2022 and then we had another one in Oregon like a few months later. And that was like the high watermark for the business of Wild Within. It's been really weird because actually financially the business started to do really well. That's like when we hit six figures and stuff. And then like for what are all sorts of reasons, the money stopped coming in. And that summer 2022 we had two programs in the High Sierras and neither of them filled. And those are 10 day programs. They're pretty costly to do if they're not full. And up to that point we had filled everything we had tried to do. We had expected they'd fill. So we quickly kind of fell into financial troubles and we're doing things just to kind of keep the lights on and keep the dream alive. So. So Wild within started financially struggling in summer of 2022 and not long after my health started failing too. I, I went through a couple, a pretty serious back injury and I also had another illness that, that like really brought me to my knees. And there was a time of pretty deep soul searching of like, okay, these things are kind, these things are connected and what's going on and what needs to change. Like what are the expectations I have or what are the pressures I'm putting on or how are we operating here? That's like not, that's not working or meeting reality where it's at and is basically causing suffering and causing pain. That's been kind of a Two year journey. That's really. I feel like kind of coming out of the woods only recently on. And I think it's brought a lot of depth to what we do at Wild within because we stayed committed to it and Wild within has matured a lot. But it's kind of interesting because if I were to track the financials and then I were also to track my own measurement of the quality of what we're doing and the quality of the experiences people are having, the quality of, of the retreats and the depth that we're able to reach, like those two lines are going in opposite directions. The financial line is like way down here. But the quality of the programs and the changes we're seeing and the way we're coming out after just feeling, just lit up about the work we did, it's like going through the roof. So it's so little, it's a little dissonant.
Lou: So on that note of getting the word out, like, you have an incredible. I don't want to call it a product, but it's, it's. It's like the offering is, is really potent. You know how marketing was working. Like, do you have an idea of why it stopped working?
Alasdair: I think we, I think we tapped out like the network we had and we couldn't find a way, we didn't find a way to kind of. We tried to do more, assuming that there was more in that network, and we didn't really have any way of pulling in new people to fill those new programs. And I think we also underestimated how much it costs on a personal level, like physically, energetically, spiritually to run these kind of programs. It's like, it's not like a product where you can just make more of them. You have limited time and energy. And you know, people tell you that all the time. You're like, I think you have to have a certain amount of like, I'm gonna do it anyway to like get into the retreat business because it is a little, I do think it takes a little certain kind of crazy and. But we just real, we just hit the limits of that, I think personally, because when you're running a retreat business, like you're doing two things, like you're running the retreats, which is a job, like to get to a place where you can do that and to hone the craft. But then you're running the business of running retreats and that part can be really draining and it's quite a lot of work.
Lou: I'm gonna reflect something. Maybe this is Wrong. But I'm just gonna start speaking and see how it lands. So I know with some people that have run retreats, another organization that I used to go on and then even in the early days of Kellyanne or even ripple out retreats, like people would go on multiple retreats because it's almost like their vacation in a way or it's like a different vacation. And I'm just like wondering as things move towards that this is death. It was definitely not a vacation I just went on. Yeah, it's definitely the time dilation of a retreat is wild. Like it's a week, feels like a month, and it's intense. It really takes a lot out of you. Like it. You're. You're going there for work. And so I'm wondering if the more it got into this is actually work and the less it got like this is fun or vacation. That it's almost like you're starting to really just have to let go of who the people you were serving before and just kind of not quite yet. Almost this liminal space of who the right person for these retreats are. And I think just I'll promo you here. Like anyone listening to this right now, knowing that you are leading or facilitating in some ways, like we need places where we can receive. And so, you know, and maybe that's. That's not exactly all the people you're talking to right now, but I think there's definitely, you know, an incredible potential for that.
Alasdair: Yeah, I. You're totally right. We've gone through several transformations, I think, and we were leading backpacking trips to, you know, stunning locations, like destination locations, kind of. I hated this word. But we had to play the game bucket list kind of things. And we knew as soon as we started doing that. I don't want to do this as soon as possible. Like, I want people to trust us and want to work with us, that they will go wherever we go and we will pick places that serve the work. But in the beginning, we knew that we had to pick places that people who were on people's bucket lists because that was part of the early marketing. Yeah. And you're also right that we have. As we've grown, we. And I've remarked on this several times. Like we've grown. We have grown out of the. Our customers. And that's not to say like they just haven't been. Some of them have followed us for years. Most of the people that come on our retreats are repeat. And that's wonderful. But it's pretty hard it's pretty different what we do now than what we started doing. And we've constantly kind of left our customers behind. And, like, we're going to do this now because the retreats have really followed our own journey. And you were talking about, like, these retreats are not a. They're not a. They're. They're not a vacation. There's a lot of parts of it that are extraordinarily rejuvenating. But what I'm most interested in when I. When we talk about a retreat, it's like we take time away from the. The profane or the mundane or everyday lives, which is important, but we take time away from that to tend to our spiritual lives, to tend to the life of the soul. These things that I think a lot of us don't have spaces for. And this is also equally important or, you know, definitely equally important that we spend time tending that. And that's what I think of as a retreat. And those are the places I go to when I go on retreat, those places that are going to help me tend to my spiritual life.
Lou: It's definitely a shift to move into not having a psychedelic on the retreat to having a psychedelic on the retreat. And those. On my podcast, in the older version of this podcast last year, heard me talk about my first experience with psychedelics at the beginning of 2023. It has informed a good amount of that year. It's still informing my year. And I've talked about on this podcast already my whole evolution of, like, how I came to kind of leaning into this way. And I just want to harp again. Like, for me, it's, you know, we could do other things. I'm starting to realize, like, nothing, something like a psychedelic can really get me out of my own way in a way that I can't control. Like, it's like I have to let go of trying to make something happen, which as someone who likes to make things happen, is. Is a good practice for me. So just, you know, making that just again, note here, because it took me a while to, like, trust and feel safe and, you know, not go with kind of the. The what I've learned, you know, heard from years and years of, like, what these things are. And we don't have to go on a rant on psychedelics specifically, but I just want to. To make that note. Like, you know, that's, you know, that's the shift. And yeah, of course, some people, you know, might be like, that might be a lot, and that's not what they're less Looking for, per se.
Alasdair: Right now we tell people, people that come on our retreats and we've been getting in the habit of saying this more these days is this, this isn't going to help you figure out your life. This is actually if, if you do this right or if we do this right, you're gonna have more questions when you leave them when you came. So that's kind of the direction that we're going. And I think a lot of people aren't. It's totally fine. Like that's, that's not, that's not what people are, are all looking for. But what I found is that these spaces have deeply, deeply, deeply enriched my life. And I, I sometimes, I kind of also think about them. We often call it kind of like doing the work. And that can take a lot of forms. But retreats are a place where you. Do you ever watch Dragon Ball Z?
Lou: No.
Alasdair: No, you never watch Dragon Ball Z. So like in. I won't go there then. Well, I will. Just for anyone who's listening who might have. But like in Dragon Ball Z, like there's these characters, right, and there, these fighters and they have this like special training center room they go to where time is not the same. So they could go there and train for a year and they come back to the real world and spend like a day or an hour. I don't remember what it was. And there's something about retreats and psychedelics even more specifically, I think. But, but I find this true about retreats. Like these are places, there is a time dilation there. This is a place where we can train intensely or work intensely. It's a place where we can actually step out of our day world lives. It's a place where we might be able to feel safe enough to let go of some of the ego concerns and maybe be in a liminal, gooey place where we experiment with some changes or allow things to dissolve or fall apart. And within that container. And so I, I think that there's a lot that can be, I don't want to say accomplished, but a lot can happen on a retreat in that kind of format that I just don't think is accessible in other places or is very hard to, to find. And then yes, of course, you come back to your everyday world and you still have to integrate it. You still have to, you can just put it on the shelf as an experience or you can continue to work with it and keep it alive and keep nurturing and cultivating those things that you discovered on that retreat.
Lou: When you're talking about spiritual transformation, healing, growth, maybe you wouldn't use those words, but I guess you used a marketing line of you'll have more questions than answers. Maybe doesn't call to people or doesn't sell retreats. So I'm just curious how you think of offering it or the selling of it. Like, how do you talk about it? What are people going to get from it? Right. If it's not just like bucket list, use your vacation days, have a, you know, meditate a little, do some yoga or whatnot. Like, you know, what's the, you know. And then you bring in something that, you know, in most states in the US isn't quite yet legal. It's, it's in a kind of a renaissance and transformation in that path. But at this time it's, you know, you're dealing with ways to talk about something that I'm sure has challenges. So, like, how do you think of, think of like promoting not just even your own stuff. But I think this goes for anyone who's like offering transformation, quote unquote. Like, how do we, how do we talk about it with integrity? Like, how do we not make promises that we can't be sure of? I think is a larger question.
Alasdair: Yeah, talking about it with integrity has been a challenge and something like, we've grappled with quite a lot because it's, it's hard to talk about what we do. It comes from several different lineages and, and we haven't quite found it. I think we're getting better at it. But I think, yeah, the whole. This is what you'll get from this. It's just,
Alasdair: I don't. Here's the thing, I, and I think it's really helpful to remind, to continue to come back to this, of when I'm on retreat. The role, the primary role that I'm serving in is guide. And that doesn't, that, that's actually pretty similar to what it's always been when I was, when I was guiding people through wilderness. This is just a different kind of wilderness. We're guiding them through different, you know, particularly with psychedelics or without psychedelics. We're guiding them to maybe realms that they've not spent much time in, realms of the psyche, realms of soul or spirit or underworld or otherworld, however you want to call it. And I don't, I know the terrain. I've been there quite a few times and I visit frequently, but I don't know what they're going to find there. Um, and that's why we say, you know, questions. I think you're going to come out maybe with more questions. So talking about it, I think it's easier to come from the place of what's the pain that I'm feeling? Or what is the longing? Or what, what, what like crazy dream do. Do I think is possible in this world? These things I think probably are where other people that share that pain or share that longing, I think it's gonna resonate with them. And that's what I've usually seen is when, when this resonates with them, it's not because we can't make any promises about what's gonna happen, but it's because they share the pain I share or I share the pain they have right now, or I've had that pain, or we share a similar longing for how we want things to be in the world or similar dream for, for what might still be like, for the possibility. And I think speaking from those places is, is. And this comes to another thing is like, I think particularly in this realm of transformation or spirituality, right? Like most, I think a lot of us retreat leaders are very aware of the fine line between what we're doing and cult territory. Right? Like, like, and, and what's his name? Oh gosh, I forget. Recapture the Rapture. He talks about how to be a cult, but not a culty cult. Right?
Lou: Like the Jamie wheel.
Alasdair: Yeah, yeah. So he. Culty cults are bad, right? But, but like there, there are qualities of cult that there's nothing wrong with and I shouldn't get into this. But. So how do we, how do we avoid being a culty cult? And I think one of the ways that we avoid that is that we speak our truth. We speak what we're longing for. We speak for the pain. We speak for our experiences in these places. And we let that sort of attract and draw in others who believe in that versus and so it's kind of like resonating, right? Like we, we. We speak. We speak it and others will, will come if they, if they, if they line up with that versus like we're going out and trying to pull people in, right? Like giving promises or ads or like the whole ad kind of machine and that kind of thing. And I know this is not a good business proposition. You kind of have to do that stuff at some point if it's going to be a business. And I've been questioning a lot these days if this work should be a business at all. But I think generally following the path of like, okay, allowing this to grow Organically and not trying to kind of juice it is probably what I've kind of come to is actually what's best for the work and what's best for bringing the right people to these things.
Lou: Circling back to the naive yoga teacher. Super excited. I want to run retreats. I want to have an experience. Maybe they just listen to this early podcast and they're still like, yeah, I have a longing. Like, you know, it's not right now about making the money. That'd be great if I made money. But, you know, I just. I have an idea. I want to bring people together. I want to do this work. Like, what would be if you had. How should they get started in running their retreat? If anything comes to mind, first off.
Alasdair: I would say that naivete is an asset. Yeah. So good on you, and good on you for dreaming and wanting to do that. I think we definitely need more spaces where we're weaving threads of connection and where we're sharing different perspectives and exploring these things. So it's a beautiful longing to pursue how to get started. The thing I think that's probably helped me the most is just go to places where people are already doing it and experience what they're doing. And, you know, what I've seen from that is you show up enough to those kind of places, and you're probably going to find some people that can help you. And one of the things about these kind of retreats, I think, especially when they're done well and they're done by people who are very skilled, is that there are transmissions. Like, we receive something from these that is hard to explain, and it's not something we can really verbalize, but, like, it goes into our bones, it goes into our cells. And, like, I've seen what happens when I lead one retreat and then I go do my own work, maybe with this school or that or whatever, and then come back, and I can just see the change from one to the next, and it's. It's just embodied. There's an embodiment to it. And so I think if you're wanting to do retreats, go on retreats. And that's part. And. And then I think if you keep sticking with this idea, you keep developing the skills, keep cultivating that. That vision of a different world, of the change that you're trying to make. I think there's something we say a lot, which is when you step toward mystery, mystery steps toward you. And I think as you do that, there might be some cracks, there might be some openings or some opportunities where you can kind of get involved and get going. And I definitely think the way we did it, which was from zero to retreats, was a very hard way to do it, and I'm not sure it's. It was the best way. So. Yeah, I don't know if that's helpful. I know it takes a lot of.
Lou: Heart just to come back to. It's like. Yeah. I mean, if you have friends, you have connections, like, and you make it. I know, I know. I have a friend who started his retreat business where he was doing, like, purposeful travel. And it started with just, you know, his friends. He just had this vision, and he, like, enrolled them. And it wasn't a lot of money. Like, maybe he made a little bit of money on it, but it was just something to get people together. You people love. I mean, people love not having to think, like, to go somewhere and just surrender to a schedule, you know, one. One aspect of this retreat specifically, maybe not all retreats, but to completely be off the phone, no service, you know, the entire time. It wasn't fully required, but it was suggested. And I know, I know. I found that to be. Be always a nice, like, permission slip to just feel what that's like in this world we live in where we're checking, you know, 10 apps 10 million times a day. So, you know, that it doesn't have to be. Yes, you know, can build an audience. But I think to get people to come with you, it's, you know, Kellyanne did it through just network, like, do through, like, community stuff and having those connections and kind of enrolling people in that venture vision. And then, you know, the. The receive the medicine that you're giving, I think is always the. The biggest. The biggest thing. There's, like, you know, coaches that want to, you know, do coaching that have never received any kind of coaching. And I'm like, you know, I.
Alasdair: You got to really ask, what is your motivation for that at that point?
Lou: Right.
Alasdair: It's not because you think coaching is really powerful because you've not done anything right.
Lou: Exactly.
Alasdair: So there's some questions to ask about why you want to do that if you're not willing to do it yourself.
Lou: Yeah. So, you know, learning in that way and. Yeah, I guess just. I mean, if you take us a little bit behind the scenes of, like, okay, you hit the 100k, it starts shutting down and you're starting read a shift. And I know you mentioned of, like, should this be a business so, you know, where do you stand on financially and how you're looking at Wild within and the business versus the, the offering and yeah, maybe speak to.
Alasdair: Yeah, I want to. I just want to comment on something you said about starting small, because I think that's a really good one. It's a really good point. It's like, I've seen, like, if you're wanting to do this from. I heard this all the time and I didn't really. It took a while to get in. But it's like, if you want to do this for money, then, like, there's, there's way better ways to make money. And just seriously, like, don't kill yourself doing this. If you're wanting to do it for other reasons, then start small and just start doing it. Do it with three people. If that's all you can get, do it for a weekend and start small in the program, too. You don't have to be super ambitious, but find something that you can organize because you're going to learn a lot about, first off, organizing it, selling. Selling it even to your friends, right? Like, taking payment for it, how much energy and effort it actually requires. Like, and also start developing the capacity to hold the energy that's required when you bring like 12 people together, particularly if you're going to do work or like go to places or guide them to somewhere that they haven't been. There's. That those are muscles and there's a lot of stamina and strength that's required. And that happens sometimes slowly. We don't just nail it. It's something that happens over a long period of time. So I think starting where you're at and what you can offer, even if that's like a walking tour, right? Like, anything where you're starting to organize it and work with people is going to kind of start putting you in that direction and your vision is going to change as you do that and as you see where your gifts meet people's interests and, and all that.
Lou: So I don't know why I had the thought of, like, when you send the walking tour of like the Airbnb, you know, the extra things that you can offer on Airbnb, like the experiences or something like that could be.
Alasdair: See if you actually like it, you know, because like, this idea, it's. It's like, I think a lot of us are just attracted to it for, for a lot of, you know, a lot. I know I was, I was. There's a lot of reasons, not good reasons. I was attracted to. To it as well.
Lou: You know, travel, I get to make money, I get to Do I, I.
Alasdair: I, I, these are all about you. And I think at some point you're going to realize that if you're really going to do retreats, like, it, it's not about you at all. In fact, it's about getting out of the fucking way, excuse my language.
Lou: We can curse on, on.
Alasdair: It's about getting out of the way and being a vessel to serve others. And that's. That, that's a big part of the training, I think, is finding places where you can, you can develop that capacity for, for selfless service and, and that, you know, what I found as we've got, we've reached a vision. Like, so in the early days, it's like, wow, okay, yeah, we're doing backpacking retreats. But in my, like, in my heart of hearts, it's like, and I, I didn't have any of the experience at this point or like, it was, it was pretty nascent. But like, it's like, what if we were guiding these kind of psychedelic retreats with. And it's not just a focus on psychedelics, but this journey and the psychedelics kind of replace the wilderness as the medicine. What if we did that and we're doing that now. And one of the realizations I've had doing that is, yes, it's beautiful. There's incredible moments and it's a lot of work. And sometimes, like, it's just a lot of work. Like, it's not that glamorous. It's just a lot of freaking work. It's freaking hard, man. So, yeah, I think just starting small can also. It gives you chances to make sure your heart's in the right place.
Lou: So if you had a name. And we'll come back to the other question I asked. You've named like the biggest misconception on retreats is it, hey, it's not going to make money. Like, I know we were kind of talking about it over and over, but just, just to like, solidify, I think.
Alasdair: That, yeah, I mean, I, I do think it's pretty rare that this is going to be a business model. Like, unless you're going to scale it right where you're, it's that kind of problem where it's like, if you want to make money on retreats, you're probably not going to be leading retreats anymore. You're going to scale it to a point where other people are leading. Right. And like that, that's this what becomes a business. Yeah, maybe there are, there are exceptions. I'm, I'm sure to that I Know.
Lou: Some people, like they have a decent audience and they like have two retreats a year and it's just like they can talk about it. Like it's like kind of they run the same thing over and over again. You know, they make it, you know, they make some money, but it's not like, it's not like they're running a retreat business.
Alasdair: No. And the retreats I think is where we get a lot of nourishment. It's like where we get that person to person contact and where we get to like really like hone the craft and do the work. It's wonderful for that. But I think maybe one of the misconceptions is, is at least for, for me, it's like I. Emily, I think it's true for our whole team is none of us realized how quickly, if we were successful, it was going to push us to our limits, like how fast we would reach our limits of how many retreats we could lead. And because you don't think about all the other things like the marketing, the logistics, the program planning, the training you need to do to even offer what you're doing, like all that stuff. And it was, we hit our limits really fast when we started to have success. So I think that one and the other misconception being is that you're going to be leading retreats most of the time. Most of the time you're not. You're going to be doing everything but leading a retreat.
Lou: You're event planning. It's like that's like not a fun, I mean personally not a fun gig for me. That's why when I was partaking like I had the best gig because I would just like not know whatever is going on and just get to come on the retreat and like the retreat.
Alasdair: The leading the retreat is like the reward almost for all the rest of the work at least I think you kind of have to see it that way if you're going to make it.
Lou: Yeah. So you've taken some steps back in Wild within and are exploring kind of other things that you're doing. And so maybe just kind of like speaking, speaking to that and, and how you're looking at, you know, the quote unquote business now and, and maybe that shift away from it needing to be your source of income. Because I think it's also helpful for people to hear like that, that process and the awareness of like, if it's your heart's really in it, there's ways to figure out how to do it. And then maybe you Kind of, yeah. Leads to something else.
Alasdair: Yeah. So I took a part time job this last year and part of that was because I realized I was putting too much pressure on this business to make a living. And I've been attached to this business financially being successful for I had been for since we had started it. And it's been over the last couple years as we've as things have been challenging both personal life and for a while within where I had to really look at my motivations and realized that my need for this to financially pay the bills and these things was actually getting in the way of the organization being able to do the work and that not only was it getting in the way of it but at times it was corrupting it. And that's not been fun to look at. It's been painful because I think a lot of us start out with like I'm going to do this and this is going to be my full time gig and this, you know, like this will be the thing I do. And we had to really kind of look at that and realize like that that's not. That that's not going to work for me, for us. So it's interesting because I am at a place where I feel more committed to the why and the work and a lot less committed to the business that is like the container for the work. I've been kind of letting go of Wild within succeeding or not in that form. And at the same time I feel more deeply committed than I've ever been to the work that Wild within is a vehicle for which is I think guiding people into. I don't think it's actually changed that much since the beginning when I was guiding wilderness trips is guiding people into the inner wilderness and helping them continue to cultivate a relationship with nature outside of themselves but also inside themselves and going into those places. And I remain, I think I've been, I've become more committed to that work and I think part of that commitment is allowing if it needs to for a while to then to fail and to find a different form to do that work in. And I don't know if that'll be the case or not.
Lou: So with that if you do you have a longer term vision, I think it's helpful for people to hear like okay, yeah, sometimes it's okay to make sure you're not putting the pressure because once you put the pressure on yourself to that the thing that you're doing needs to make money. Like you can't. It's hard to, to not feel the desperation sometimes or not feel like if this doesn't work out, like there's just mixed needs in a way. Like there's a mixed needs where you're looking at, you know, what's, you know, your survival, your security has to do with kind of other people. So just, just like hearing that, I think it's really helpful for people because I know there's a lot of people listening to this that would, that are still doing their job. Like they're still at their job. Maybe they want to do this more. But like not needing it, you know, not depending on it to pay the bills is definitely gonna give you a little bit more space.
Alasdair: And like, also I would really question, like if you, if that's your desire, where is that coming from? Is that, is that because, like why do you need it to pay the bills for? You know, is that a status thing or is it a success thing? Like why. It's a hard, it was a, it's a hard question, but like, why can't you have a job and do this on the side? You know, why is that a problem for you? Because, because if, if, if you're committed to it only, like it's a pretty narrow, narrow, I think perspective to be like, it has to be financially work, like, or has to financially support my life or maybe other people's. Right? If you're doing this with other physical facilitators, you've lost so much flexibility. You've lost, you, you've, you've just made the amount of possibilities for how you can do the work so much less than if you are able to open to other ways that this work gets done. And I think ultimately the, if we're really committed to this, it's like how does the. How what, what do I need to do so that the work gets done? And it's really not about me at all. And I'm not saying like, I know that in these, in these realms it can be really easy to get into this like self sacrificing mode. Right? Like, oh, we're doing spiritual work, we shouldn't be paid for it or anything like that. I'm not proposing that. I'm just saying can, can you keep an open mind and be flexible about all the myriad ways that you could set this up so that you're able to serve people. Because at the end of the day this is about serving people. And yeah. So vision, like I do have a vision and I'll speak to that in like kind of two ways. The first is, and I've had this vision for quite a while, but the underpinnings for me of what were like the, the territory of the work for me is shamanism, wilderness depth psychology or, or this kind of what Anima's Institute is doing. It's, it's this kind of like eco psychology, depth psychology area and kind of Eastern, Eastern perspectives, like particularly Buddhism. But these are like the four realms that I try to spend time in and study and practice. And that's where I'm drawing from. And so I feel like that's a lifetime's work to continue to, to operate in these areas, study them, learn how to practice them and potentially share them and kind of also bring them together. That's like, that's, that's what's really interesting to me and keeps just drawing me more and more. Like I, I just, I'm so fascinated by the intersection of these places. Um, so for me that's not, I know it's not a very tangible vision of the future, but for me it's like this is where the work lies and it's like what's going to generate whatever comes next. And so I'm going to continue to spend time in this territory and I don't know what will happen. And the more maybe a more tangible is we're kind of pulling back from these big retreats we do that are like, you know, week long programs. This last one was called into the Heart and in the center of it was two psilocybin ceremonies. And there was a lot on both sides that also supported preparing for that and integrating that. I love these big flagship programs, but they feel a lot like cruise ships. They're hard to turn, they take a lot of resources and you have to plan. We started planning this trip over a year in advance, seriously planning and investing in it and things like that. So they're, they're huge. And I think right now the feeling I have is okay, step back from that. Because once you start doing that you can get in the cycle of like, okay, I made a lot of investment. I got to get people to this. Like you just get into this thing where you're like, you're more focused on the marketing than the work and it's really easy to slip into that. And so I think we're, we did this retreat and it was beautiful and amazing and I know there's going to be a time where we will do it again or something like it, but I think right now we want to pull back, do smaller programs and events where we're working With a few people at a time where we don't have to make massive investments in venues and things like that that we then have to fill. Otherwise we will lose, you know, lose money and all that. So like taking a step back, doing smaller things that are low key, less investment, less risk, even like playing with different models. Like we've been playing with donation based models, which is what I prefer because I would like this to be as accessible as possible eventually. I think this would maybe be better as a non profit than a for profit business. I think that's probably where we should go. So doing these and they also take a lot less personal energy. So we can do that, we can, we can do them more often and just continuing to hone the craft because I feel like we've really discovered something that I, I'm in love with and I want to keep doing and I feel like I have the skills, the, the right experience and skills to do this thing. It's a really special feeling that I think I've been searching for, for, for decades really. It's like what am I here to do? And I'm not sure I've totally answered that, but I'm starting to get a pretty good sense of like what that is for me. So I think at this point it's like let's step back, let's do some smaller scale stuff and let's just keep honing the craft and then let's let, let's see what like kind of almost like a plant sprouting out of the ground. It's like let's see what it wants to do, where the work wants to take us. Let's like instead of putting our expectations on where the work should go or what should happen. I've heard it recently called the difference between farmer consciousness and hunter consciousness. We spend a lot of time. This comes from Bill Clan. We spend a lot of time in farmer consciousness putting something in one particular place, trying to get it to grow in a certain kind of way, to have a certain kind of outcome that's like most of. And I can relate with that. That's a lot of the way I've been approaching wild within and, and I'm trying to shift into hunter consciousness which is like, okay, what like being willing to let go of something when it's no longer like the right way and like being able to notice new possible connections or other luring opportunities and follow drop something like you know, at the drop of a dime and move in a different direction and just like hunt, hunt that thing or like follow it. So I'm interested in shifting more into hunter consciousness and seeing where, like what am I stalking? Where, where does, where, where might, where might I go if I, if I kind of just roam?
Lou: Well, I have no doubt in my mind, however long that takes that, that you're going to help a lot, a lot of people in the various ways that you do your work. You are so devoted to your path and you have a heart of gold and I just, I'm grateful to, to call you a friend and to, to watch your growth and to see how you, how you do, how you work and. Yeah. Just I always kind of sometimes think of like, man, I want to see Alistair when he's like 70, like this, this incredibly profound elder. Just. Yeah, I'm looking forward to. Well, not too soon. Let's, let's, let's, let's slow the brakes a little.
Alasdair: I love that comment though because that's a question that my wife and I operate by a lot. It's like who are the elders that we want to be like that? Like. Yeah. Growing into. Become the elders that I, that I, that I want and want to be. It's kind of a big question for me and thank you for everything you said, Lou. It's been such a pleasure to share this friendship for definitely over a decade now. A lot of twists and turns.
Lou: Yeah. Yeah. So hopefully if you appreciate any of this conversation, go check out I should know the website by heart. Wild Within.
Alasdair: Wild within.
Lou: The wild within.org to see the offerings to come on retreat and just to tap in. I know you guys have book clubs going like you have different free offerings to just get a sense of the vibe and energy of like. Yeah. So I highly recommend. Good. And checking that out and I know also you work one on one with people as well.
Alasdair: Yeah.
Lou: That you can find information. Information on that I think on the.
Alasdair: Website and yeah you can you or you'll at least be able to find a way to contact me but I work as a coach and a guide with people that are interested in this kind of work and Wild within is offering a retreat out in the, in Old Growth Rainforest in Oregon in May so that it would be the next opportunity if you would want to participate and just.
Lou: We didn't talk about this at all but Alistair is not on social media or any of that so he's, he's, he's the best kept secret that I know. So I'm hoping that more people can, can. Can go and learn and, and work and share his energy and all of wild within, including my partner and Julie, Roxanne and. Yeah, Alistair. Is there anything else? Any last one words anywhere else you want to point people to before we. We close up?
Alasdair: I don't. I don't think so. I appreciate the opportunity, Lee. This has been great.
Lou: Yeah. Thanks, brother. All right, we'll see you on the next episode soon. And lots of love to you all.