Making a Living on Insight Timer & Beyond w/ Saqib Rizvi
In this episode, I sit down with Saqib Rizvi to have an honest conversation about what it really takes to make a living on Insight Timer. We dive into the challenges and opportunities of building a meditation teaching career, the balance between creative expression and financial sustainability, and the lessons we’ve learned along the way. Saqib shares his journey from starting as a teacher with no clear plan to growing a thriving platform—and the unexpected shifts that changed his approach to both business and art. If you’ve ever wondered how to turn your passion into a profession without losing what makes it meaningful, this episode is for you.
Takeaways:
The reality of making money on Insight Timer—what works, what doesn’t, and what to focus on.
How to balance authenticity and business without feeling like you’re selling out.
The biggest mistakes new meditation teachers make and how to avoid them.
Why patience and consistency matter more than quick success in this space.
The mindset shift that helped Saqib and I create sustainable careers while staying true to our work.
GIFT FOR YOU
If you’re a meditation teacher or coach who wants to create unique meditations people listen to over and over again, enroll in my free course Meditation Script Mastery
Music Credit: Nova by River Roots - https://www.youtube.com/riverroots
Podcast Transcript
Lou: Dear listeners of the Art and Business of Meditation podcast, welcome. I am Lou Redmond and today we are continuing our little series of bringing back past guests that have been on the podcast before. However, they were on it when it wasn't the Art and Business of Meditation. And so we have my friend Saqib Rizvi back on the show. If you listen to his last convo, we went deep, deep on some out there stuff, talking about past lives and, you know, some of Saqib's earlier spiritual journey. And today we are going to highlight more of Saqib as a teacher and as a guide, as a mentor, as a coach. I don't even know what he calls himself nowadays. So maybe we could talk about that too, always a fun one, and see what he and us have to share in a way that's going to help your journey on your path. So saket, thanks so much for coming back on the show.
Saqib: Thank you so much, Lou. It's a pleasure and I really enjoyed our previous conversation and I'm really looking forward to going like diving deep into whatever we are going to explore today.
Lou: So I think a great place to start or restart in some ways is your beginning of your teaching journey and maybe another way to approach this is what, what were your hopes back then? Like, did you have dreams of some sort of like future where you're like, okay, this, if I have this career or if I and I know you don't share this. I mentioned this in the conversation with Charles recently. Like, you don't share the Oprah's couch dream. You know, was there like a, a vision when you started, you know, I teaching and making things like, you know, whether it was for insight timer or creating stuff online, like did you, did you have a dream or has it just been kind of this feels good in this moment?
Saqib: Yeah, yeah, that's a, that's a great question and great point of discussion to start with. I would say both like in, in the sense that yes and no and it has been in like different phases. So, you know, just to kind of also talk about what you said about like we don't share the dream of the, you know, being on Oprah's couch. Actually that was a dream at some point of time, but it actually came. So let me mention like what those cycles and waves have been for me, those different phases. So initially when I started out, I had no idea or even no intention that I would become a teacher when I started meditating. And that was more from my own personal, you know, personal, own transformation and the problems that I was going through, the stress, the anxiety, also, like, kind of a spiritual transformation that I was going through because my religion, you know, I was practicing Muslim. My religion was more about, like, the. That connection to God is through, like, certain priests. You know, in. Excuse me, in Islamic tradition we say, you know, these priests are known as maulanas or maulvis. And only a maulvi can actually make you connect with God. Or, you know, only these verses of the Quran can make you connect with God. And with due respect to whoever practices religion and believes in that. But what I came to realize that this does not resonate with me. And it's my own personal experience that actually makes me connect with God versus, like, reading the Quran or. Versus, like a priest. And so that was another point of getting into meditation. So health benefits, easing my stress, anxiety, but also, like a spiritual experience. And initially I had no idea that I would, you know, become a meditation teacher until what happened was that I. At some point of time, someone told me that, that. Start expressing yourself. And I was at a particular retreat in Dharamshala in India, and that's also where I got trained into. Informally trained into meditation. And one of my mentors said that you have a beautiful voice and you have, you know, you are also, like, your demeanor is towards being more calm. And so you. I. I feel that you can be a good guide, and I feel that you are ready to be a good guide. And although it had been only few years since I was practicing meditation, and I said that it has only been a few years, and I'm not, you know, I don't know if I'm ready to do that. But he said that it's absolutely okay to. Because I was feeling this, you know, dilemma, which I'm sure you might have also experienced that. Is it really this time to start teaching now or should I, like, be a, you know, student for many more years and then go into this. But he said, this mentor of mine, he said that you. It's absolutely okay to express, like. And you don't really have to label yourself as a teacher, but you can start expressing yourself. So that's the point, Lou, when actually I. And I think it was 2018, and I had been also meditating on Insight Timer through insight timer since 2016, and I had been noticing that you. You were already a teacher there at that time. I. I believe you joined before me. Right.
Lou: A first meditation I published was 2016. To consider myself a teacher at the time would be a stretch, but I published a meditation in 2016.
Saqib: Yeah. So. So I actually. That I don't even remember, but I think. I'm sure I would have come across a few of your meditations, and I would have done your meditations. And now it was 2018. And so when this mentor of mine told me that, you know, his name was Renato Unterberg, and he was like, he came from Europe to. To India, and he wanted to become a monk, and he has become a monk now, and he told me that you actually can start expressing. So that's when I decided to create my first meditation file, first meditation audio, and I put out two meditation audios. And, you know, that's when I actually. I had no intention of or no, like, even no idea that this would work or something would happen. But lo and behold, after three months, I get this email from Inside Timer that your meditation has been accepted. And there is this teacher's dashboard that you can check. And I go online, and I check that both meditations had more than 10,000 plays in one day. And I was like, wow, this is amazing. But that also kind of, you know, that kind of became an inspiration point that, okay, maybe I'm not ready fully yet, but at least what I'm sharing is valuable to people. And so then it became like a dream, you know, in that sense, then as I got into this field, then when you listen to other people, when you, you know, get inspired by other creators, other meditation teachers, other spiritual figures, you start feeling that there is certain. Like there is a certain checklist to this, right? Okay, you. You publish content, you write a book. You know, you. You do this, you do that. You go on a show, you go on a podcast. You. And kind of like get your own show. You know, as you said, be on Oprah's couch or, you know, do a show on Gaia or get a Netflix show or something like that. And that becomes like a. Like a checklist. And so I had all those, you know, at that time, I had all those goals, but it. It wasn't until 2, I would say maybe 20, 20, 21, that I realized that this is not, you know, maybe I don't want to do it as, like, a goal. That this. These are the things that I want to do. But what I. What I really want to do is I want to let it unfold through me, whatever I am expecting. Depressing. Maybe, you know, it is. It is okay for me to just keep doing Inside Timer for my whole life. Or maybe it is okay for me to, like, just be a student and not Be a teacher. And just because ultimately the. The truth is like, the true journey is the inner journey and the, you know, our own growth and spirituality. Yeah. So that's when around 2021, it changed. And it changed because I was. You're not really feeling called or like feeling motivated to write a book. I was very much inspired by, you know, you writing your book and Charles writing his book. And I was like, yeah, maybe I need to write a book. But I didn't feel like every time I would try to do that, there would be a voice saying that you're trying to, like, push this. And this is not coming from your natural, you know. Yeah. Natural experience. So, yeah, that's my. That has been my. Yeah. So I would say it has been in phases that at times I would have those dreams, but at times I would just let go of any dream and just go with the flow after.
Lou: I'm just gonna rewind here a second on what you shared and then we'll. We'll continue pick back up. But I just want to highlight because I know there's newer insight timer teachers listening and I've spoken to this before on the podcast, but I can't. It's. People can't understand what it was like in. In that even 2018. Right. You mentioned this being 2018, like how early on that was and how much traction your meditations could get because you were being published on the home screen of the app. And in 2016, I mean, your meditations could be on the home screen for multiple days. It's pretty phenomenal when you think of where the. The app is now. And I always have this and everything was perfect and I wouldn't change a thing. And I am so fortunate. We caught the stream, we caught the wave. By no means am I saying anything about that, but there's always this funny part of me that if I can go back in time, it's like striking gold and not realizing you struck something really good and you have something good here and you should probably stop doing everything else in your life and just focus on this channel because. And who knows if you had. If I had done that. Cause I was similar right When I found out, I was like, couple thousand play like, what? What? Where? Who are these people? Like, what is this thing? And if I could go back in time, it's like drop everything and just create content and share on here. But it could have been crap content. Right. So everything was perfect. But I'm curious as you think of and reflect back to, wow, that's a lot 10,000 plays of your first two tracks. Like, what did. Were you like, okay, I'm gonna start creating more, or was it just an affirmation that what I had valuable? Like, it seems from what you just shared that it was, oh, something's valuable. But I need to like, I'm gonna be. Keep doing my own work and I'm not, I'm not like, gonna really pay attention to this. So I'm just curious, when did you really like, turn to pay attention to it after that initial. Those initial tracks went out?
Saqib: I would say almost immediately because at that time I was actually working in a, you know, working in a. I. I had my own business and the business was doing like really well. And the, the good thing was that I had the option at that time because I had, you know, shares of that business. So I had the option to sell those shares, get some money and, and do nothing and just focus on this. So I actually, when, when this started happening, it, it might not have been like, immediately after like publishing those two meditations, but maybe let's say about publishing six, seven meditations that I started noticing, okay, this is not just a fluke. It's happening. Like, people are listening. You know, this is. Something is building up. Although as you, as you remember, there was no pay at that time for like publishing free meditations. And it was after six or seven meditations actually that I decided, okay, you know, and by that time I had also. I already kind of had made up my mind that I want to leave this business and I want to like, start, you know, something in this field.
Lou: So.
Saqib: So what I did was I sold my shares in the business. Now I couldn't have keep doing only Insight Timer because that was not paying. And also there was not much scope at that time, as you remember, we could only publish meditations and even courses were not available to everyone to publish at that time. And so I, I sold my shares in the business, but I also joined a meditation like center to work. So I was working as a meditation. I was working in a meditation center as a marketer in Delhi for two years. And that was when I was also started publishing a lot of meditations on Inside Timer. And also I think that was the time when, you know, after a year or so on Inside Timer, I created my first course. I think it was after one or two years and it started paying. And when it started paying, I was like, wow, this is amazing. And you can actually potentially grow this and you can actually make a career out of this. So, yeah, it happened Gradually, over a period of two years that the meditation started gaining more and more traction. I was working in a meditation center at that time. And the good thing about working in that meditation center was that because I have, you know, that meditation center did not require like, much of marketing. And I have been working with, you know, with corporates in the field of marketing, and it was much easier for me to work for an NGO in marketing. And because the work was not too heavy, it was not heavy load. And because I had a background in marketing, I had an MBA in marketing, it was easier for me to handle this work. So what I would do in this NGO is although, you know, there was flexibility that if you finish your work, you can do anything you want. So the work that usually it would take like eight hours to complete, I used to finish that in like three hours and rest five hours. I had time to create meditations for inside time. So that's how I used to manage my time. And yeah, eventually when the courses started paying and the income started building, I then decided to do it full time, almost full time. But I was also like doing some, you know, other marketing consultancy work at that time. Side by side. Yeah.
Lou: And so you decide when full time also means you're going to move to the U.S. right? Was that, I'm assuming.
Saqib: Yeah, yeah.
Lou: Or the camp. I'm sorry. Yeah. She always feels like the same thing, but yeah, it's like that other place that's.
Saqib: Especially now with all the politics.
Lou: Right. Yeah. And so 2021 comes around where you shift into. Okay, I'm not going to focus on these checklists of things that I think what a person in this field is supposed to do.
Saqib: Yeah.
Lou: And then is that the Time Insight Timer also rolls out its new blink mentorship platform. And because I know you were really, like, focused, you're big on like developing the mentorship and doing really well with the workshops. Right. So we were, you were probably like, yeah, tell me more about that time for you. Because it seemed like you were all in on Inside Timer at that time.
Saqib: Yeah.
Lou: And then one other question, like, do you wish, do you wish you had had. Because Inside Timer really made it seem if you wanted to. And I always had like a, for me, I, I've always had this, I want to build off of it too. Like, I always have had, like, I, I, I know I don't want to put all my eggs in one basket and I want to build off of it and have other things. I've always felt that even from the very beginning of like, I knew Inside Timer was going to start paying and having the courses out there. It seemed like you were like. And I, and there's a part of me that wants to do this too, but the reality is like, who knows what's going to happen? But you were like, I'm all in on Inside Timer. I'm just gonna fully go all in. So how was that at that time period for you? And do you wish going back, like, you would have thought of building off of it as well?
Saqib: Yeah. So, you know, the good thing was as I said, the, you know, I had, I had sold my shares in this company, so I had savings and so moving to Canada at that time. When I moved to Canada, this, and this was 2019, just before COVID hit us. At that time I had savings and I was moving from India to Canada. Now as you, as, you know, like just with dollar conversion and you know how like there's a vast difference between the spendings in India and the spendings in Canada. So I, if I would have stayed in India, I would have been able to survive for 10 years without working, you know, that I had, I had those many savings. But if I, if, if I have moved to Canada now, my, my kind of bandwidth to survive without income was two, was down to two years. So I had two years of time. I, I told myself that, okay, you know, I will give my, I'm giving myself these two years. I will not worry about other platforms right now. I can focus on Inside Timer. And the reason I did that, Lou, was because I was not enjoying other platforms. You know, I, I, I tried on YouTube, I tried on a little bit on Instagram at that time. I was, Facebook was a thing at that time. I tried on that. But what I realized was that these platforms require marketing. These platforms, platforms require like you spending time in things you maybe don't want to do. Right? You, you kind of being aware of the reason of the analytics and being on top of the game and competing with other, almost like competing with other people. But Inside Timer was very different in that sense that there is no, like, it's more of a collaborative, it's more of a, you know, although there is certain level of competition amongst teachers, which I feel is also, you know, at some level healthy competition is important, but it's not really like a marketing, you know, oriented platform. It's not that you have to take care too much of your, you know, of your content, of your title, of your image or of your analytics and everything to push content really, or you don't have to advertise or anything like that. You simply have to like do good work and it will pay off. And so that's what I really liked about Inside Timer. The other thing that I really like liked about Inside Timer was that out of 100 people who are coming to INS on inside timer, 100 are interested in meditation. Whereas out of 100 people who are coming on, let's say YouTube, maybe only one person is interested in meditation. So to, you know, it was a smaller audience on Inside Timer, but again it was a niche audience. And so you know that it becomes much easier to. Yeah, you feel good about it, right? It's not like you are speaking into the void like what you are saying, what you are speaking, what you are putting out as content. It's being respected by the people because everybody is interested in meditation on that platform, which was not the case on other platforms, Facebook, YouTube, Instagram. And so I decided to go all in on Insight Timer and I thought, okay, let's see, what is the capacity of Insight Timer, you know, how much I can as a teacher grew on Inside Timer? And it paid. And you know, to answer your previous question, it actually really paid off well when so courses were doing well because courses were paying. But what really increased that was as you know, you, as you were saying that the one on one sessions and the workshops which on site time were introduced and it was just a period of one year, you know, that was, that was the beta testing that they were doing. And at that time almost like it skyrocketed because I was getting a lot of one on one sessions, I was getting a lot of enrollments in the workshops and I was like, wow, I can just do Inside Timer and not worry about my income and make this a full time thing. But I think, you know, what happened after one year that they shut down everything and the income went back to, you know, almost half of what it was. And but still I would say that that helped, that those, that period of one on one sessions and workshops helped me to build my own offerings. In terms of one on one sessions and workshops. It's not the same as Inside Timer because there were a lot of bookings from Inside Timer, but when it came, when it, but still it kind of build a rhythm, a momentum which actually helped me to build things from my own website, you know, one on one sessions, workshops and all these community circles that I'm doing now. Which helps to, you know, which helps to also add to the income support of what Insight Timer is providing. And then it helps Me to focus full time on, you know, on this rather than doing any worrying about going into other platforms, YouTube, Instagram or Facebook or all those platforms.
Lou: I can imagine a listener might be thinking, sake, you have a marketing background and you didn't want to do the marketing. You know, you don't want to do the marketing. Is there anything from your marketing background that is as helpful like in, in this sort of world or was it just like a different. Maybe it's for. And I think marketing for different industries can be specifically different. So there can be like. Yeah, just curious, like, have you. Were you able to take any of that into what you do now or has just the landscape already changed so much in probably last 10 years where it's like the tools are different?
Saqib: Yeah, yeah, that's a very good question. Because, you know, you are right that marketing is different in every aspect. And the paradox and the reason actually I did not want to do marketing was because I had seen the marketing world and I had seen how it is and I was kind of like, in a way, although I'm not saying that all companies have, you know, kind of tried to push content. Some people do like really good marketing without even like pushing content or pushing advertising and all those things onto people. You know, I feel Apple is an example of that, but I was kind of. I did not want to. It somehow just felt not right to. And that might still be like a, you know, a barrier in my mind which, which I need to work on. But it, it didn't feel right to push a lot of content out there. I just felt that I want to not worry about letting this content go to people. I, what I really want to focus on is creating good content. You know, the, the idea in marketing that product is king, that basically you focus so much on creating something really good that automatically it becomes, you know, something that people really want and something. It becomes a word of mouth. People start spreading with that, with each other. So in a way I was inspired by, you know, let's say for example, Apple, who did not spend on. I don't know if they're doing it now, but at that time they did not spend on advertising, but their product was so good that people would like rush towards it versus, you know, them trying to push it through advertising. And so my, my whole intention was I really want to good. Create good meditations, good courses, good offerings which will speak for themselves. And so, yeah, that, so that's how marketing in a way has helped. But also I was more into marketing strategy. So my work was to actually do research on different markets. And I was working for a smartphone company at that time, and we were launching smartphones in different countries. So my work was to go to that market, do the market research on the ground, and also then come up with a strategy that would lead to a launch strategy for that particular smartphone in that company. And in a way, although I don't consciously apply marketing tactics to my work, but I would say intuitively, I. It gave me a sense of what, what, what will work and what will not work and you know, what, what is the best way to present something or what is the right time to, you know, launch something or what is the. So it just gave me an intuitive marketing sense in that sense, which is like more unconscious, but consciously I do not bring in marketing. And I think Inside Timer does not require that because you just have to like, publish. Yeah, you have to have a sense of when you are publishing what you are publishing what the title is, how the image is, and all these things. But you don't really have to go deep into analytics, to marketing analytics to figure out, okay, maybe some people do that, but I don't do that. Okay, these are the analytics. This is what is working at this point. People leave the meditation or at this point. These are the things that people are liking and these are not the things. I don't go in that, into that too much, but it does give an intuitive sense of what will work and what won't work.
Lou: Yeah, I'd be curious to know like, what, how much people are searching, like how much SEO in the search realm, like, helps with titling on Inside Timer versus how much people are just scrolling up and they have their personal kind of algorithm in some ways that they've, that they're getting and obviously for us being there for a while, that being supportive. But even, you know, word of mouth, I don't know. It's. It's so, it's so hard and it is. I have, I understand like early teachers now coming on, like trying to break through. Right. There's nowhere your newer meditations go anymore. Like for a long time, even when things changed, new meditations were still somewhere. So you could still like have some organic search function. Now you publish a new meditation if you don't have any followers, it. No one's really seeing it. And so how are, how, how do you build algorithmic juice and Inside Timer? I don't. They have that information. I don't know. So it definitely, I definitely. It is harder to, to get the word of mouth, like you know it's one thing even if you got a thousand people that took something or 100 people that like something like if a couple of them shared and a couple of them shared like that can be spread but if you get one or two or if you're having to spread it, it's. It's definitely a different game nowadays for newer teachers and I recognize that and which is why so many, you know using live. The live features a way to. To. To connect with people and really like you know, create high value content which you're amazing at. Which we actually had. I lied. We did have an I did post I think a podcast interview of your episode of Meraki. I think I made it as a podcast episode when you came to Meraki and we just all we talked about Insight Lives because soccer has probably the most Insight Timer live experiences anyway. So go if you're interested in just like Inside Timer lives go check out that episode.
Saqib: I think it's now what you said about the. The content was and like how they choose. I think it seems to me now that it is more AI based that the AI will decide because I think the last time we were on call with Christopher Pl when he was meeting the teachers he was saying that he has introduced a system which is like AI based system that the AI will decide what meditation should be, you know shown to what user based on their interest based on how like good the meditation is good in the sense like you know how much traction it is getting or how much people are liking it or people are rating it and based on that like the AI will automatically suggest but you are right that you know, you're so right that if there is a new person on the platform and they're publishing a new meditation and let's say if they do not have a following there the question arises that would the AI suggest that meditation because it has no traction right now. Yeah, that's kind of a tricky thing.
Lou: It's interesting if, if, if Insight Timer can become more like YouTube. I don't algorithmically because I think YouTube especially now is really a great place to. For a newer person to. To. To show up in other people's feeds and to show up in like randomly being suggested now Inside Timer is having some suggesting feature there there goes to say whether it's obviously different than YouTube but hopefully they go more towards that to create more of that discoverability in a way for newer teacher just as if YouTube's doing it for newer channels and and it all supports like it all. It all will Support and as inside Timer grows, hopefully as more users it just it's all going to be a win win hopefully. And it seems like based on that call with Christopher that that things are heading in a good direction which is really good. But obviously we, we, you know, we've. I know personally 30 I'm curious. Was was December's revenue even low? For me December's revenue like this last paycheck was was even lower. Like was a bit lower than even the ones before that. From that did you have the same experience this year?
Saqib: Slightly. Slightly lower. Because yeah, I, I feel that I have been doing more work but the pay has been reducing. So if the same thing was there, like if they were still paying for the comments, my pay should ideally would have increased in the past few months. But it actually decreased by a small amount. It seems that the return rate is doing good. So that's why there is a return rate bonus that I'm getting. Yeah. How is it for you the return rate? And you know what?
Lou: I haven't looked at this other month. I just looked at the PayPal notification like of how much I got. I actually hadn't looked at the revenue breakdown yet. So I have to do some analyzing of rate of return in the past couple months just to understand it more because I'm not analytically understanding it yet. But maybe it's good to you know, for me doing content on this stuff, maybe it's interesting to. To know a bit more so. But it was lower. It was not a ton lower, but it was about a couple hundred bucks lower than the last month. But I also I kind of expected that I was noticing December plays which makes sense. You have the holidays less people on it. But I was definitely noticing a lower amount of my courses getting played than normal.
Saqib: Yeah, that's right.
Lou: We all don't have the, you know the, the hot hits as Charles nowadays of you know, 1500 a day just absolutely bonkers of numbers that Charles is getting. Yeah.
Saqib: And and that's like for. For those who understand that like who's a teacher and inside timer would know that 1500 plays, you know on a course on a in a day is like magic number. Like I think maybe one of the highest of you know, for all I.
Lou: Want to know so bad I want to know what Sarah Blondin's getting a day because that's it's up. That's up there. And so how we talked about a little this before we started hitting record sake insight timers paying less. You need to maybe your savings has Dwindled down over the years, I'm sure as you continue to live in places that are more expensive and continue. How do you balance that? Well, I have to make money and this is what people are paying for and this is what I feel like creating, but maybe it's not as lucrative or. Yeah. Are you. Are you still thinking of, I'm just going to create what I want to create and trust that the universe will provide, or are you saying, well, what is actually going to pay and creating for that?
Saqib: Yeah, that's. I think that's the deepest question for today, I would say. Because, you know, it is a dilemma because, you know, on one hand you have to, you know, you. You want to do what you really want to do. You really want to just, you know, I think if we would have all the money in the world, then we would. That's why when we will do what. What we really want to do and we will, you know, maybe just. I would say that I would continue doing only inside Timer if that was the case, if I would have all the money. I'm really enjoying creating courses these days, so I would continue doing that. But there is also, on the other hand, this kind of paradox situation that if I do what I really love to do, then maybe it is not as much. That's not exactly what the audience needs. And what then happens is that the income goes down. Because let's take an example here. Let's say if I'm creating a course on. I created a course on love Nirvana and that was out of pure. My pure heart. That was not something which I made from an intention of like getting something back. And I really wanted to do that because I wanted to express my heart out. And as expected, you know, it. It did not do in that sense, like in the sense of numbers. It not. It did not do well. Although I love that course. It did not do well. But when it comes to any manifestation course like it. It. It does so well. And you know, because that's like a hot topic for on Insight Timer. And so I'm like, I don't just want to keep creating courses on manifestation. I want to touch other areas and even do something which is like not very popular on Insight Timer. But then that comes a dilemma. So what I've realized is that I have to create a balance between the two. I have to create content at times which is out of purity of my heart, which I really want to do, which I am passionate about. Maybe talk about, you know, stuff like alchemy or, you know, which maybe today's, today's people in today's time are not very much interested in. But, but you know, I, I, that, that is something I really enjoy doing. But when it comes to, at times I also allow myself to like mix, like kind of combine it with, combine it with something that is popular. So hey, here is like kind of, as I said, the strategy, you know, the, the strategic marketing mind, which I did not do intently but unconsciously it happened, was that I realized that I can combine these two things. So an example of that is the, you know, magical manifestation course that I have, which is on the Egyptian Secrets of Abundance. And I, I was in this, in, in a dilemma that, okay, I really like talking about Egypt. I really, you know, love that thing. But if I do only a course on Egypt, which actually I did, it's called Timeless Egypt and it did not do well in that sense. But then I thought, okay, what if I combine this with manifestation? You know, so how, how, what if we talk about how the Egyptians manifested? How did they, you know, get all that abundance and all that, Lo and behold, it did really well. And, and so that's why again, you know, a really good, doing really well in terms of numbers. So I feel that balance and that mixing and matching and combination of things can really help where there is something you really want to talk about, something you really want to do. But you know, that maybe if I put it out in, in its raw form, it will not work out. But if I combine it with something that the audience wants and which is popular, then I can, you know, create something that is unique, that is something I enjoy and that will also be loved by the audience. So that is one thing. The other is what you asked about the idea that should I also like in the sense of do only inside Timer or kind of spread out to other platforms or think about other modes of income. One good thing that has happened, Lou, over the past few years is that although the income from Inside Timer has gone down, but what has happened is that because of the continuous work that we have done, you know, and in terms of publishing meditations courses and also live sessions, the audience has started connecting. Like there are certain people who have become like regulars, right? In terms of attending workshops, in terms of doing one on one sessions. And that has built up really well over the years. So I think one of the effects of doing consistent work on a certain platform is that it creates an audience who are like your loyalists and who would do every offering that you have that is beyond insight Timer. Any workshop or any one on one sessions or that you're offering or anything like that. And that has really helped in maintaining the income aspect of it. So I would say that almost, I would say and there are also like some certain other apps that I keep publishing on and they are also paying. So I would say that now in fact, I would say Inside Timer, although at some point of time Insight Timer was a major contributor to my income. Now I would say it's. It's less than half of a contributor to my total income and other income are coming from like these people who I connect with who have become loyalists and also like some other apps that, that are there. Yeah, but still I would say in terms of like the share of income, Inside Timer holds the. Still a majority of that. It's still. Still like a. Not the majority, but a significant chunk of that. Yeah.
Lou: Brilliant strategy to think about for people listening. I hope you really take that and think of. Okay. Because you can, you can. I think even for newer teachers you're able to niche like what? You're able to niche down a little bit. Like the Egyptian. The Egyptian is like a niche thing. Like, oh, that's interesting. So that's going to attract that niche audience that's going to be with you of like, oh, wow, no one's talking about this. But for the people that are into manifestation, they're like, oh, this is a different, different view on manifestation. I haven't heard this view. So it attracts both people, it attracts the niche and attracts the broad. Which is absolutely brilliant because. Because it's always the big question. And I think about too for newer teachers on should you go really broad or go really niche? Because you go really broad, you're opening up to more people, you go really niche, you may be actually going to cut through the noise. And so what do you do? And you're. Well, you just said it. Just do both. Right. What if you put your niche with something that's really broad and what are the. The three.
Saqib: The three.
Lou: Darius talks about this of like the three things that people are always going to pay for. Like relate, you know, the biggest problems in people's life. Relationships, money. What's the third? There's like one more that's like a core. Always like a core issue. Obviously health is always going to fitness. Fitness is like a core issue of like health and whatnot. So those, those tend to be where, you know, if you can figure out a way to pivot to position. And I would say manifestation in some ways is like a. Can be all of It. Right. You're manifesting, you know, your relationship, your body, the thing. Yeah, exactly. So it kind of. Kind of hits. It hits on all of it. And you're. You're so right around. For me, I just released a course on the prayer of St. Francis, and I knew I had. I had no. I had no doubt that this was not. Not going to be a breakout course. Like, I just. I really wanted to do a little course like this. And I. And I knew the people who like this prayer are going to love this course. So it was for, like, an insider group. But someone ended up taking the course that didn't know the prayer at all. But he only took it because he heard someone else that he didn't realize would take it. Like, he wasn't religious. It didn't call to him. And someone that, you know, I've worked with before or I do work with, and he. He mentioned this. He's like, lou, you know, I think it would have been good to title it something like growing compassion, like living the prayer of St. Francis, like speaking to what it did, rather than just the living the prayer of St. Francis. And I was like, that's. That's an interesting perspective to like, to kind of speaking to what you're saying. Like, what are people really looking for? Compassion. Oh, here's this other way to work on compassion or humility or whatever, you know, the essence of. Of that course. So brilliant strategy. I hope people figure out a way to create that or make their own course in that way.
Saqib: So are you considering retitling your course?
Lou: Yeah, that's a good question. I don't know. I don't. There's a part of me that just likes the simplicity of. Of what it is to be determined. Maybe I'll ask. I'll ask in the mastermind group because there's something of, like, there's something. I really wanted it to speak to people who knew the prayer, which is a big enough audience, I think, because it's shared in recovery groups. So there's a big people, like, in recovery that have a sense of. Of. Of that. And there's maybe a part of me that I don't know. There's a part that's like, for this, it's just purely that. But yeah, there was a thought, but I haven't thought too much around actually making the ch. I'm someone that. Sometimes it's hard for me. Like, when it's published, it's like, this is the version that this needed to be. I've learned whatever I need to learn. I'll take it into account for next time. But it's really hard for me to try to go back and think about republishing something or changing something of that, of that stature of like a title.
Saqib: Yeah. And I think it's also the, like, the. The value of the original intention. Right. The value of, like, originality. At that time when you were creating, you were in a certain. You were in a certain, like, passion about this topic. You. You were feeling passionate about this and you were like, you know, it was original and raw to you. And there is a value in like, maintaining that versus, like changing that in the future. I feel the same about, like, you know, they love Nirvana course. In fact, someone actually made a comment that this looks to be like more of a title of a porn movie. I love Nirvana. And I was like, yeah, if you look at that. But actually, and you know, that person said, oh, you can actually change the title and you can do it something else. And like, no, like, it came from the purity of my heart, you know, and then it. Love. Nirvana means like totally something else to me. And it's. It's a very deep experience of like, awakening and enlightenment and, you know, through experiencing enlightenment through love. And I don't want to change my originality and like, that raw intention around that by changing almost like a disrespect to, you know, what I created with the intention I created. So, yeah, I understand that.
Lou: I think you're speaking right now to like, the differences in seeing it in an artistry way and seeing it in a economical way and like. And balancing both, maybe. Right? Balancing like. Yeah, trying to optimize for the economical. What's going to get the most clicks, what's going to title. But also, you know, this feel, this thing that came out where it's like, honestly. And it sounds like for you too. I mean, for me, it's like, I didn't. I knew that it wasn't going to get a lot of people. I didn't really care about it getting a lot of people. It just felt like this is the. The more the art that I wanted to create and wanted to put out into the world. And like, it's fulfilling for its own sake and however it does is good in itself. And so it's like asking and not making one better than the other. I mean, I think there's a romanticism that the art is better, Right. In some ways it is, but it's also just trying to also honor both ends of like. Yeah. Finding those serving obviously the Business to grow. And I, and I like what you said and I say it all the time. It's like having Insight Timer should not be your mainstream of income. It's. It's asking a lot of the app to be your mainstream of income. So figuring out for me, it's probably. And I'll do a full recap of my revenue on this podcast shortly now that it is the end of the year and I'm kind of finishing up accounting and whatnot and taxes and all that stuff. So I will do another episode like I did last year on that. And Insight Timer probably for this last year is around, probably be around a third tends to. I've gotten it to around a third, which is great. So if like Inside Timer does a little less, there's other things that are keeping up, keeping up the boat. And I'll just say one more, one more thing when in what you're making me think of. And this is something I need to continue to work through because as I say often on this podcast, like, I'm not trying to be the business coach for meditation teachers as much as I kind of am in a similar way with this podcast. So it's just like I'm holding this weird thing because what people want and what, what sells, the thing that sells the most is obviously making more money. It's such an easy sell. And I find myself super challenged by what the essence that I'm really trying to give in this. But if I do on YouTube, if I do any sort of content that has Inside Timer and money together, that's going to be my best content, that's going to be the most impactful. And so it's like how to give people the thing that they want, but also package it in the way that's unique to me and getting to the heart of how I want to share it. So for me it's that, like that earning, like how you actually earn income doing this work, which is a, which is a big, a big thing that I love to talk about because it was such a tough journey for me. And it's also, I also have a lot of fears in being that type of the, being that guy. I can't explain it in soccer. So I have some more stuff to work on. But I do want to give more intention to YouTube and I've been playing with this kind of intention of work with love, earn with integrity. Like that kind of being the basis of what the channel is going to form into and, and obviously going to influence this podcast too. So this is These are very newer things. So I'm speaking this for the first time to you and for a lot of people listening and, and to anyone, be honest.
Saqib: So, yeah, that's, you know, what the. And it also reminds me of, like, is the title of the podcast, the Art and Business of Meditation.
Lou: Yes.
Saqib: Yeah. So I, I feel that that's a perfect title because what you're saying in that is that it is, you know, and that's like the kind of combination that we are talking about that it is, it is business. Yes. But it is, most importantly, it's art, you know, and it's the art that is more valuable. What I feel, Lou, is that when we focus more on the art aspect of it. So I'll talk about if we focus more on the business aspect of it, the impact is in the present. The impact is in a short term, yes, I will make more money. I will get a lot of audience. But if you focus on the art aspect of it, and we do it more from the purity of our heart and bring out that art, it becomes timeless. Then your work will be even listened to by or read by, you know, people 100 years from now. Reminds me of Vincent Van Gogh, that his work did not pay for him for his entire life and only after he died, you know, his painting started selling for like millions of dollars or something. So, yeah, that's, that's the value. Although he could not reap the income benefits, but he became like a timeless figure for, you know, for, for humanity. So, yeah, that's the paradox.
Lou: That is my advice to upcoming in Teachers. Think of Vincent Van Gogh. When you're creating your meditations, you might not be here when they set off. You might not be here when Insight Timer starts. You know, when someone buys Insight Timer, they find your meditation and it's got billions of you going to be long gone. But trust, trust that it's going to be there. If you're connected to your art and sharing it, you'll become a.
Saqib: You'll leave your legacy.
Lou: Leave your legacy. That's so, so beautiful. And I think a profound thing to share with everyone, to remind and it's so funny. Yeah, what I just mentioned. I was like, you're talking about the art and the economy. Well, wait a second. That's what this podcast is about. I forgot what the title of my own podcast is. Saqib. Any other thoughts for people listening that might be helpful? Whether it's developing on Insight Timer currently or ways to think about growing their work or growing the love they have for their Work. Any other thing you wanted to chat about or share?
Saqib: Yeah, I would say that, you know, the initially and I think it also kind of relates to what we were talking about, that there has to be whenever we are starting out on any platform, you know, be it any other platform, but also especially Inside Timer, because it does take a lot of patience to build things on Inside Timer. On other platforms, it can be like a fluke, let's say on YouTube I create a video, it goes viral, and I become almost like an overnight success that doesn't usually happen on Insight Timer. Right. It's like the building of these meditations and these courses over a period of many years that, you know, and we have done that for many years, you and I, and it now it is paying off. You know, although there were periods of highs and lows and maybe we are in the low right now, but still, like it took time for us to build that and get to this point of, you know, really kind of that it also starts benefiting the teacher. So I would say that we have to kind of decide a period of time in which we will only mostly focus on the art and maybe focus less on the business and then later on focus on the business when the, when the thing has built itself. So initially my intention can be I just want to put out good content, good really good meditations, really good courses, really good sessions or live sessions. And all those things that I'm doing, not worrying too much about the money factor, at least for some time, at least for maybe, let's say whatever time you have, maybe you have the capacity to do that for one year or maybe two years without worrying about income too much. What that will do, not thinking about, you know, income too much for those one, two years. It will help you create really good content. Because when we are not thinking about the outcome and whatever we create, it is very pure. It is usually very beautiful and unique. And so allowing yourself, you know, ask yourself how much time I can go on Inside Timer without income. And if you can give yourself that time and just keep consistently creating really good work for. For that time, then at some point of time it will automatically start paying off. And then maybe you can focus on, you know, building the big business and doing other things and increasing your income. But yeah, at least that time is to be pure art. Yeah.
Lou: And the irony is that that's also what's going to get you the most income is not thinking. You know, there's like an energetic thing principle to this and there's just. Yeah, it's amazing. I've been love, love that so much. So thanks Sake for, for sharing your wisdom.
Saqib: Yeah, my pleasure. Always. It's always fun conversation. Yeah.
Lou: Sake. But now you got like workshops that coming up or other things anywhere you want to point people to.
Saqib: Yeah. I'm soon starting with anyone who listens before 15th of Feb. So I'm starting with a workshop again. This is something which I, which I absolutely love and this has come, you know, which is like the mysticism of Carl Jung. I love exploring his mystical side, his mystical teachings and I've been doing that for a while now and now I feel like it's time for me to share it. So I'm doing a workshop called the Mysticism of Carl Jung. It's starting on the 15th of February 2025. And yeah, anyone who wants to join that they can go to my website, saqibrizvi.com and they will find it there. And yeah, that's my upcoming thing. But my website, you know, sakabrizvi.com it's the. I have everything there, all my offerings and also my Insight timer page inside timer.com sake I'm sure everyone's listening already.
Lou: Following you on Insight Timer. You have a large platform, you've been building it for a while and yeah. Appreciate you Sakib. And for everyone listening, we'll see you on the next episode.
Saqib: Thank you.