Crafting Content With Heart: Insights From a Therapist w/ Andrea Wachter
This episode features Andrea's heartfelt account of her mental health journey and her evolution into a therapy professional. She shares her wisdom about building her practice and her gift of using humor to navigate challenging topics. The episode also delves into the art of repackaging content for meditation courses, offering guidance for those looking to create impactful and engaging content in the fields of therapy and meditation.
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Podcast Transcript
Lou: Hello. Hello, friends. Welcome to another episode of the Art and Business of Meditation podcast. Today's guest is Andrea Walkter. She is a licensed marriage and family therapist and the author of Getting Over Overeating for Teens. She's also co author of Mirror, Mirror on the Wall, breaking the I Feel Fat Spell and the Don't Diet livit workbook. That's a great line. Andrea is an inspirational counselor, author, and meditation teacher who uses professional expertise, personal recovery and humor to help others. Andrea, welcome to the show.
Andrea: Thank you. Thanks for having me.
Lou: Yeah, it's so great to connect. I think you sent me an email maybe in 2017 or 2018 because we were connected on Insight Timer. So it's really cool after a few years later to have this conversation and to really learn more about you. I feel like you have some really big courses on Insight Timer and you do some great work. And I'm curious to see this other work that you're doing because you show up in some pretty interesting places. So take us a little bit back. I know you mentioned your own story of recovery, of maybe what got you into wanting to be a therapist or into your spiritual journey. So, yeah, whatever feels relevant to share. I'd love to learn more about you.
Andrea: I can say what got me into being a therapist, but then also perhaps later what got me into teaching on Insight Timer. And I'm sure you have a story, too, how we all landed there. Here.
Andrea: My therapist journey was out of the dungeon of pain and struggling, you know, myself, I struggled severely with an eating disorder, with drug and alcohol abuse, anxiety and depression, which was probably the reasons why I turned to all the substances. And I really struggled in silence for many, many years. Eventually got help. And as I began to heal, the eating disorder and the drug and alcohol abuse and not as much the anxiety and depression, those were a little deeper and longer lasting. But as I began to heal from habitual, really unhealthy patterns, I just naturally wanted to help others. And I think that happens for a lot of people. It's like the lemonade out of lemons. I just wanted to share what I was learning and so I went back to school. Shockingly, because I always hated school and I was like, I'm going to go back by choice. But it was so interesting to me to learn about counseling as opposed to all the things I tried to learn when I was younger that weren't of interest to me. I went back, got my master's and started being a therapist. First nonprofit agencies for years and then eventually private practice. And I did private practice for 30 something years now, so it's been a while. And in recent years I found and started getting involved in Insight Timer. I can tell you about that if you want, but that's my journey of becoming a psychotherapist, wanting to help people heal in the areas that I had so severely battled myself.
Lou: So this must have happened still when you were pretty fairly young, it sounds like.
Andrea: Yeah, I got right on breaking Bad, I'll tell you. I started when I was a young teen. As soon as I got the relaxation effect of drugs and alcohol and cigarettes, I was a goner. And I was raised, unfortunately, like many of us in the cultural obsession with thinness and body perfection and all of that. And especially as a woman, certainly not only women, but especially as a woman, the pressure to look a certain way. So I started dieting at a really young age, and then being so hungry, I couldn't stand being so hungry, so out of control eating. And I call it the Diet Riot roller coaster. And I rode that baby for a long time. So, yeah, I did start like, in my early teens with all this craziness, and it all just escalated. It's hard for me to believe that I actually went to school, I actually had summer jobs, I actually had friends, I had a life. And some of people would see me on the outside and think I was like the life of the party. But I was a mess inside, just constantly obsessed with my appearance and food and out of control with drinking and drugs and really anxiety and depression off the charts. And it became such a passion of mine to help others, especially young people, but not exclusively to try to help people get off that path or veer off the path or not even go down it as kids. So that's what I devoted my life to, a lot of my life to helping others.
Lou: And when does meditation find the picture?
Andrea: Much later. I remember trying to meditate when I was in early sort of recovery from addictions and my eating disorder, and I couldn't even sit for a second. In fact, this was when landlines were still happening. And my friend and I, we both wanted to try to meditate. So we would call each other on the landline and sit in silence, like hold the phone up to our ears and sit barely for a minute. We started with a minute, then I took some classes and tried different types. And when I read my first book on Mindfulness, that's when it felt like a bag came off my head. Prior to Mindfulness, I just really felt like I was thoughts with limbs, like there was nothing present about me. It was just a thinking and not a helpful or kind thinking. And when I read about mindfulness and I was like, our thoughts aren't real. Wait a minute. What? I'd spent decades just tortured by my thoughts. Wait a minute. Present moment. What's that? Literally years after I learned about mindfulness and began dabbling in meditation, I went on a date and the guy asked me to go to a class A talk. And I said, what's the topic? And he said presents. And I was like holiday presents. What do you mean presence? What does that even mean? And we went to this talk, to a spiritual talk, and I ended up going back every week for years to that particular teacher. So it was dabbling at first and then full on. I am so devoted to living in reality and not invisible issues, invisible future, invisible past. I am so devoted to it. I sort of joke sort of that my life feels like a spiritual retreat. I mean, I do work and I do have a life other than this, but I'm just so devoted to living in reality instead of my unkind mind, which my mind isn't really that unkind anymore, fortunately.
Lou: It sounds like a beautiful just I'm already feeling the transmission of what you've gone through and catalyzed and transformed in your path. And it's just to hear you talk about your journey as a devotional practice and what's the difference between work and praying? And I love a teacher, David Hawkins, who would always say to make your life a prayer. And I think what I'm hearing you say is kind of that. And obviously there's also that intention to notice, to continually be on guard of doing your work, staying aware of the places that I'm sure that you still might trip up or get into, spiraling down, but maybe you're in it and doing it for a while
Lou: in doing your therapy. So I'm assuming you started your practice of therapy and then this meditation entered the picture. Or have you been bringing it in from the beginning? Or how do you work with your clients in that way?
Andrea: Well, I think in the early years it was mostly cognitive behavioral therapy, process work, ashtalt, a lot of learning to change and upgrade self talk. Didn't know the word upgrade then, didn't even have cell phones then. I make myself sound like I'm $90.
Lou: I just have a distinction just for my own curiosity. When you say process work, is that more like emotional feeling? Like feeling, moving, like energy?
Andrea: Yes. And it's also like parts work, what we now know of as parts work, or ifs internal family systems. But back then, I don't even think that was around. I had learned a lot from a place called the Process Therapy Institute. And it's like, rather than talking about feelings, feeling them in the moment, rather than just talking about I'm anxious, tuning into anxiety and having compassion or your heart connect with it and talk back or bringing it out into a chair and your imagination. So having a process that brings out what's going on inside. And that was very powerful for my own work and hopefully clients. But it wasn't until years along the way that I really started meditating and not like, I guess I could say, being able to meditate, not just sitting and obsessing the whole time and looking at the clock, but finding my way to actual some moments of peace there and some moments of actual presence. I didn't really know about guided meditations, but I still find them extremely helpful. Some people like more quiet or chanting or sound and sometimes I do, but I really like someone guiding me, even if it's my own guidance.
Lou: That's beautiful. So I'm just curious as someone, maybe you have your own views of coaching because coaches is kind of like the Wild West, right? Therapy is a little bit more structured and boards and there's more bureaucracy and there's more actual relegations and things like that. So to start your practice and I'm thinking of people listening on here, I know there's potentially some therapists, I know there's potentially some coaches. And so to start a coaching practice, people are like I don't even know what that looks like. But therapy, it feels like there's more of a route. Maybe there's like centers where you're practicing at. So how do you start? I mean, I guess in your time it was 30 years ago, so it's a different time. But how do you start a therapy practice, a solo practice or how was that journey for you?
Andrea: Well, school helped, although I didn't learn that much from school, I must say I really learned from working at agencies and being trained, being supervised, being in the trenches. I remember going into a session and doing something, some intervention, listening, whatever, hearing something, then go into supervision and having the supervisor suggest what do I do in the next session? And then I would do it. And then they'd respond and I'd be like, uhoh, I got to go back to supervision. I really didn't have it in me yet, intuitively or was educated enough to be able to tune inside and really know how to respond to different situations. And I was working at the time at a family crisis agency. I mean, it was like a mass unit. It was just teens in crisis and drugs and alcohol and juvenile hall and newly trying to be clean and sober teens who didn't want to be there and eating disorders who didn't want to be there. It was just crazy. How did I start? I got my degree. Not easy, but I did. I got 3000 hours. Can't even believe I did that, but I did. I got them at the agencies and then fortunately was able to get hired. And then I just knew that I wanted a private practice. It was partly because I wanted to be my own boss, but realistically I knew that I would work 8 hours to make the same in 1 hour, in 50 minutes at an agency with a beeper and after hours and tons of paperwork versus private practice. But pros and cons to everything because you work at an agency, you get a paycheck sometimes you get benefits, you get supervision, you get group connection, camaraderie support. You're on your own, you're on your own. Although I did have a business partner, and that's another story. So I think I answered maybe.
Lou: Yeah. So a lot of work, I think, and anyone here considering different sort of coaching, trainings, having that mentorship, having people watching what you're doing obviously is very crucial to, like, oh, learning through, having someone who knows what they're doing, watch you, give you feedback. And putting your hours in 3000 hours is a lot of being in the trenches, getting your reps. So I can totally see how that was. It challenging. What was it like to say, okay, now I'm going to set up this private practice, like fears, I'm sure, and I guess how quickly were you able to, oh, okay, I have a steady stream of clients. How do you market yourself? How did you get yourself out there?
Andrea: Those are great questions. I weaned myself. I worked part time at the agency for a while and then started in private practice. I rented an office part time from someone so I didn't have to be responsible for an entire office space. One thing I did that was extremely helpful was I took well, first I had a specialty, which, decades later, I wished I didn't, because that's, like, all I would get was eating disorders and anorexic girls and people potentially life threatening situations, bulimia and people struggling with binge eating and a lot of networking with the team, with doctors and dietitians and therapists. It was my specialty. It's my heart. It's the thing I lost the most amount of time on this planet to struggling with. But I wish that later that I didn't have just one specialty that I kind of got known for in my county, that I had a little more diversity, but eventually I did, so oh, I interrupted myself. What was I saying about, oh, building the practice? One thing that I did that was super helpful was I found in my town people that were booked, therapists that had waiting lists, doctors that were really popular, and I asked them if I could take them out to lunch. And who doesn't like a free lunch, right? So I did a lot of that. And that to me was different than sending out my card and my announcement. I'm opening my private practice. If somebody doesn't know you and really get a feel for you and you take them to lunch too. Not that they would have referred to me if they didn't like me, but that just felt really helpful to take people to lunch and meet them or for tea and meet the doctors in town. And for years, those were my biggest referral sources, were the people that I actually introduced myself to.
Lou: Yeah, that trust, that trust factor I'm sure people listening to think of what's the analogous thing for you in just developing connections. Really what I'm hearing is it's a really solid way of networking. And I guess the question is, how do we do that if we're not local, right? If our network, if we're looking to be more online? And there's ways, right? There's definitely ways to cultivate that.
Andrea: Right, but that's another good point, is that if you're a psychotherapist, which I'm a licensed marriage and family therapist, you can only work in the state that you're licensed. So if you're having private practice and you're going by the books, you don't network. I do sometimes work brief sessions with people in my courses to just do psycho education and help them with the lessons. But I'm not doing deep, ongoing psychotherapy with people out of the state. But fortunately, because of my courses, I can help students sometimes online who are out of my area. But I definitely don't do deep, long term psychotherapy with them.
Lou: So you deal with a lot of really difficult topics and difficult experiences, depression, anxiety, eating disorders. And you mentioned when we talked or when I asked in my kind of inquiry for it, that one of your gifts is actually bringing humor and levity to such challenging topics. So I'm curious if you're able to what does that look like? How do you bring humor to what can seem like such a dire, dark circumstance?
Andrea: It's funny because when I was in 6th grade, they were giving out awards and like best at this and Most at this. And I got this little ribbon that said Funniest. And I went up to the stage to pick it up and they said, So now say something funny. And I was just like mortified. Standing on the stage with my entire class trying to say something funny. I'm thinking I didn't even know the word stand up then, but mortified. So now you're asking me how do I be funny? I just be myself. I've got that East Coast shtick kind of thing. My dad was super funny and I definitely don't do it. I think at inappropriate times I definitely try to it just sort of comes out, I think, a little bit here with us, but life. And I don't even think laughing at ourselves. I just think sometimes things happen in a session or connecting with people, and there's a way to have it be light hearted when it's appropriate. Certainly when it's appropriate. I don't know if you've ever listened to any of my courses, but I definitely have some jokes in there. Not jokes like a guy came up to a bar kind of thing, but just some levity, some light heartedness when it feels appropriate.
Lou: So you mentioned before we were on this, it's interesting, you're writing for Psychology Today and you mentioned before this that you used to write for AOL, which was such a throwback.
Andrea: Does that even exist anymore?
Lou: I think it still exists, but not in the way that it did. Probably when you were writing for it. It's probably the biggest mailbox news source online platform. So how did you get these kind of writing opportunities early on?
Andrea: That's a great question.
Andrea: I do what I love. I reach out to people when I'm moved to, and then I just see what happens. That's kind of my philosophy of life. When I met my business partner. We originally met in an eating disorder support group 30 something years ago, probably longer. And then we both had our private practices. We decided to also have a little group together to do eating disorder groups in our town, write a book eventually. And oh, I just lost the question. What was the original question?
Lou: AOL getting these opportunities, psychology Today.
Andrea: And people would ask me, what's your goal for your business with my business partner? And I said, Wherever it wants to go. And so that's what I have always done. If I'm drawn to write to somebody, write to a newspaper, would you like me to do A-Q-A column? Here's my specialties. Lately I write to Oprah because I'm hoping to be with her, have her know about my know when I'm drawn. Otherwise, I just do what I do. And somehow somebody on AOL contacted me. This was like dial up days. I mean, I literally I was doing groups and waiting for the dial know and not sure I was even going to get in it. And I started a column. Maybe I had done a column for a newspaper locally, A-Q-A. I've always loved Q A, which is why I love the classroom so much in the Insight Timer courses. I just love that format of being able to respond and support and offer tools. So, AOL, somebody contacted me, I can't remember who. And I started doing this column called I think it was called Ask Andrea. Like a little Dear Abby kind of thing. People would ask me questions and I'd respond. Back then we had live chats, which again was the dial up cross your fingers that it would dial up in time. And I did that for a while. How I got psyched today, this is 30 years later, somebody reached out to me. Actually, somebody reached out to me, an editor from Psychology Today, and on email and said, we'd love for you to write for us, articles for us. And then the next day, another editor from Psychology Today wrote to me and said, we'd like you to write for us. And I thought, oh, this is Spam. Because when you start getting more than one, like, in a day, I'm thinking, oh, please. And I Googled both their names. They were legit editors from site today. And I'm thinking and I kind of had a little bit of an attitude, like, if this is a marketing thing, I don't want to pay you for articles. And he said, I swear it's not. We're going to pay you. And I thought, oh, sorry I called you a marketer a spammer. But anyway, we've worked that out, so they reached out to me. Other times I've had real quick publishers did.
Lou: Neither of knew each other was reaching out. Like, they both found you and then.
Andrea: They both reached out. He said that's never happened before. We both happened to read a Huffington Post blog of yours. He heard me on a podcast, the Happiness Lab. She read a blog and they both happened to in 24 hours. So to me, that is like, totally meant to be. And yeah, so that was pretty amazing. And it's been just sort of a mixture over the years of I reach out to someone and say, would you be interested in me, whatevering, writing a book, an idea interview or other times I'm just going about my life and somebody reaches out to me. It's sort of been a mixture of that.
Lou: So if I'm following you correctly on that, it's not that you have the strategy to always be waking up and like, who can I connect with? Who can I reach out to? How can I get myself in this thing and that? But it sounds like it's more of this kind of quiet urge or nudge or intuitive hit that you're like, something about this speaks to me, or Let me reach out. Am I following? That right.
Andrea: Completely. I was thinking the other day, I was actually hiking in the forest and I was thinking about doing this talk with you and that maybe we might talk about how I started the meditations and how I started the courses. And I was thinking some of my courses were like planned births and some of them were unplanned pregnancies. I totally am going to do this class on body image. I want to do that. I'm going to sit down and work on it. Or I totally want to write this anxiety relief course. I have the tools inside of me. Other times, it's like three in the morning, woken up by my mind. Here's the syllabus for a depression relief course. No, I don't want to do another course. It's too much work. It's three in the morning. Here it is, sweetheart. So it was like totally unplanned baby and other ones were planned and that's kind of how it's always been. My only true goal is peace of mind, and I really mean that. Peace of mind and wellness. Throw in some good health, that's it. And so I keep that as my home base. And then if something comes to me to do, if it comes to me, if it just pops up into my mind, oh, submit this to such and such. If it pops into my mind, do a meditation on this thing that you've been doing with yourself before you go to sleep. Or somebody writes to me and it feels good and I want to say yes, that's pretty much how I do it.
Lou: Such a beautiful reminder. I think for myself when I think of having those feelings and the people that I've connected to and some of the things that have unfolded from that and also the times when I've tried to force things and those weren't the right energy. And I learned from that too. So I appreciate the reminder. Let's talk insight, Timer. I've talked to a lot of insight timer teachers, as you can imagine. And it's always fun to hear when they find it, how it shows up, their experience of it for me, and from sure, some other people listening. So, yeah. When did that enter the picture, and what was your first thoughts as things were rolling on there?
Andrea: I bet you get such different stories of how people got there, found their way there. So I was, as I said, in private practice for a long time. Pre smartphones, I called myself the Postit Therapist because I would always hand someone a postit. Like, try thinking about this during the week in between sessions, because I know for myself I needed more than just 50 minutes a week. There's a lot of hours there with your mind. So I was always really committed to giving people homework, suggestions and ideas to think about at home. And then I started. Once I really became devoted to internal practices like meditation and guided mindfulness or process work, I would do that with clients a lot in the session. So if somebody was struggling with binge eating, let's say I might guide them in a meditation. To think of the binge eater part of them. And what does that part say? What is that part really hungry for? And how can you respond to that right now? From your heart. So things like that or just mindfulness coming home to the chair and this room? And what I was hearing often from clients is they would come back the next week and say that thing we did at the end was really helpful. I wish I could have had a recording of that. Well, then smartphones came on the scene, and I thought, well, we can. You can have a recording of that. So I would often when I was guiding people in a process of some sort, at some point in the session, I would say, would you like me to hold your phone? If we do this. I can record it into your phone and just getting feedback again and again, that I listen to that every night. Or I listened to that. It was so helpful hearing it. I did it over and over. So that seed was there. Well, then flash forward several years. I don't know how many years, but a lot. I didn't even know what an app was. I'm definitely not like technologically savvy person. But my husband also a meditator, also a therapist. Also very spiritually connected. I came home one day and he said, oh, I found this app. There's this new app. It's like the most popular app out there. It's called Insight. Timer And I was like, what's an app? I mean, that's how far gone I was. So at the time, I remember I'm not big with numbers, but I think there was 4 million users at the time. I think now there's like 24 or 25 million. So he said, oh, why don't we start each day doing a meditation on the app together? And so I love that idea. We would often meditate together anyway in the mornings and that's how we started and still to this day start every morning we take out the app and we pick one. Sometimes we stick with a person or something, never mind, because I don't want to be hearing. I'll go, oh, I had a swallow there, I missed that crack voice sound, crack old darn, sometimes yours, and just different people's, whatever we're drawn to. And that's how we started every morning. And then one day my husband said, why don't you've been really enjoying making meditations on people's smartphones, why don't you put one on Insight Timer? And so I thought, okay, well, where's the quietest place in the house? Turned out to be my closet. So I took my little iPhone into my closet, surrounded myself with my clothes, and I made a meditation, my first one. And as I'm sure you feel the feedback, I mean, hearing from people all over the world that liked my meditation, that said my voice was soothing, that said the words were helpful, and I mean, it was just so gratifying and eventually that's how it started. And then eventually they started compensating and I came out of the closet and got a microphone and a studio for my courses and just things just went from there. I think I have 40 or 50, I don't know how many meditations. And then my classes, it's just been such a blessing.
Lou: Yeah, I think you have 60,000 followers on there. You have some really popular, really amazing courses. And what I heard is that on your first meditation, you just did it on an iPhone and uploaded it and you still got good feedback, right?
Andrea: I still got good feedback and I didn't even really know well, I did know what I was doing and that I had 30 years of helping people with processes and working with the mind and tuning into the body. But I never went to like, here's how to be a meditation teacher class and I never went to here's where to stand with the microphone and don't eat potato chips right before you talk. I never learned any of that. It was only years later that I learned it's best not to talk directly into the microphone. I'm like, oh, I should have known that 14 meditations ago.
Lou: Yeah, my first meditation, unedited raw, and my first few bunch of meditations actually, and they still did really great. And you'll see some people that might have commented on. Swallowing. And there was one, like my most popular meditation, the one that just became like just some meditation, just especially in the early days, became the popular one. It was a morning meditation, no surprise. But I actually uploaded an edited version because I think we can re upload it. But still, some of my oldest ones, some of my oldest ones are still raw because there's something about just like, I don't know, the energy and it's there and it's that time and it's great. So anyone listening to this, obviously there's a lot more teachers on it than when we got on there, but it doesn't have to be the most produced, edited, shiny thing that sometimes actually people appreciate, hey, this person. I just feel their spirit, I feel their energy, and I can concur. Like, you have a very soothing voice and also just your energy of your being. I always believe that that's actually one of our biggest teachings that we're doing. Whether we're holding space for other people or whether we're creating a meditation is like that imbuing of ourselves into the work, into that, and being there for someone so really awesome. So you mentioned figuring out recording. What have you learned about recording? And I see you have the blanket behind you. So what are some tips that you've learned to up your recording studio?
Andrea: Well, for years with my courses especially, I went to a local studio, and people don't even have to go to a studio. You can record something at home and email it to a sound editor if you find one you like, or I like mine. And at least get the pops out and the hisses and the peas and the background sound. I mean, that can always be done, even from the iPhone. I now sometimes will go down into the laundry room, take my computer. Well, my husband has to carry the whole thing. It's a whole production. I didn't do it today. I thought I'll just go with the blankets. What I've learned is as much cushioning as possible so you're not in an empty room. Carpet, clothes. I have like, a little styrofoam box sometimes I use not going right up to the microphone, I think really helps. Being hydrated is huge and not just like guzzling five minutes before you record, but hydrating throughout the day. I started with that and I really appreciated learning. Don't talk directly into the mic, talk to the side so it doesn't take your P's and S's as much. But I did want to say something about those reviews because it has interestingly really helped me with life, I think, to get some not a lot, probably if I got a lot, I would have stopped, but occasional negative reviews. And I've noticed that in the beginning, I would have butterflies in my stomach and think, oh my God, someone thought I sounded patronizing. I'm not like the nicest person I know. What the heck I was just coming from my heart, how could I sound? And the very next review for the very same thing is this was, like, the best thing I ever heard. And I'm thinking, Wait a minute, what's true? So I've gotten better at handling those occasional negative reviews. I don't try to read into them. I wish the person well. I don't get butterflies in my stomach anymore. And so it's sort of toughened me up a little bit. I know being a sensitive person has helped in my work with people, but it also really can be hard to be sensitive. And I think you have a course on this that I listened to once that was really helpful. I can't remember the name of it. Not taking things personally or not caring what people think or something. My husband was going to do it with me, and then he said, no, I got enough from the title. The title was really helpful, and I'm like, oh, man, healed from the title. And I have to take the whole thing and try all day long to not take it personally or not care what people think. So that's away from the recording aspects. If you want to veer me back, feel free.
Lou: No, this is great, and I still care a lot about what other people think. That's why I'm still working on it, right? Teach what we need to learn. But it's so true, those reviews. You'll have, like, ten amazing reviews, and this one criticism, and your whole energy goes to this one thing that negativity bias that we have, and it's really and I'm sure you're a therapist, so you can kind of aware of this too. It's like, in good and bad ways, people, they're putting their life onto your words. And sometimes I get comments and reviews, and I'm like, I didn't even say that or mean it like that, but it helped you exactly what you needed help with. So great. And then the other side, sometimes you'll get people putting their stuff on your thing, and it'll just bring up all this stuff that's like, okay, this is what you needed to share, and this is what this brought up for you. So it's like they're going to obviously project themselves onto it in both good and negative ways, and learning to disidentify from that and knowing what's yours and what's theirs and what's your responsibility and what's on them is definitely a practice. And as I'm sure with the amount of courses and feedback that you've probably gotten, it's been a journey too.
Andrea: Yes. And there are times when I get feedback and I think, wow, that's true. I missed that, and I do it over. Not the sounds or the popping so much, but like, oh, I missed that part of a lesson in a course, and that's really important. I'm going to do that lesson over. It's not like I'm thrilled to go get out the laundry, go to the studio and do it all, but it's worth it to me to really be able to stand behind and update things when they need to be. So sometimes people give me feedback and I think you're right, I'm going to change that blog or change that lesson.
Lou: Yes, sometimes I agree, it's almost like, oh, I never would have seen it that way. But you're right, that does make sense. That this thing and you just respond. I don't tend to change it. I like to let things live in the way that they were sometimes and just be like, this is one person that saw it this way. And you're right. And sometimes people make comments. It's like I don't even remember what I said. This is like four years ago on this course, on the note of this, because people on this course or on this podcast probably tired of me sick of me talking about this. But I see meditation, like the title of this as an art. To me, it's like my art, the art that I am most connected to. Meaning like how a singer looks at songs. I see meditations. Like I have an idea I'm working through something and through working through it, my creation is a song. Just how an art singer's creation might be an album. And so I look at courses. Courses are kind of like my albums. And so as an artist, I know I or we or an artist would have more love or appreciation for certain albums. Sometimes I think this is going to be it and it's really connected to this, but then this thing is what people want. So I'm just curious, with the courses you've created, if there's ones that are your favorite versus the ones that were most marketable or most popular, curious how that lands for you.
Andrea: That's interesting. Yeah, I see them as my babies, but I can totally appreciate the artist. There's like a painting, it's a creation. It comes out of us, I could say. My favorite meditation for sure is called a Message to anxiety. And it's where I have guide people to talk to their anxious mind and their anxious sensations from compassion. And I have just found that really helpful for myself to kind of separate out there's the compassionate heart, the wise mind, and then the freaked out limbic system and to talk to it. My favorite course. That's tricky.
Andrea: I was surprised about the depression relief class that was like the one I said just came out at three in the morning. Not the whole thing, but the outline for it just came out in the middle of the night. And I really feel proudest I think of that. I feel like I really went through a lot of depression in my life and like not wanting to be here anymore on the planet, levels of depression. And so I put everything I learned and everything that's helped me into that course and again, I get lots of like, this has saved my life. I'm doing it again. I love this course. And then not for me, one star. And I'm thinking, why? How come? And then I think, okay, bless your heart. But that course, I feel proud of the overeating class. Also, it would be funny if I just said every one of my classes is my favorite.
Lou: You totally can. Just like kids, right? If they're your babies, right? They're all your favorite.
Andrea: My favorite the overeating getting over overeating course again from the trenches. That course is everything I learned that helped me stop binge eating, restricting my food, obsessing on my appearance. And I have a teen book called Getting Over Overeating. And so I took the legs, the basics of that, and made it into an adult or any age course. But I think that's an answer. I mean, I do love them all, and they're all really important to me. They're all birthed out of love and experience and personal hell. Really.
Lou: Yeah. As an extension I don't mean to laugh at the personal hell, but as an extension of this podcast I am creating a course on, and I might be misguided, if I'm being honest. It's like there's the question of, well, I do this really well, and I love doing it. And so I wonder, people ask me about it, could I help others do it? But this is my art, so people aren't going to do it like I do it. So I guess in the spirit of I'm thinking I am creating a course on creating meditation courses. It's a little meta, but what's your process when you get the idea? I know some people that outline it, and then they just riff. I personally script and I write it like a book, and it takes me months to get through a course. Curious, your process on it?
Andrea: That's exactly what I do. I script every single word. Occasionally I'll adlib in the moment and I'll change things in the recording and editing section part. But yes, a few of my courses were planned. And so I really just sat down and I didn't say, like, I'm going to have writing hours because that's just not I can't make it come. But I would start with an outline, move it around a little bit as I go. Just a creative process, like you said, painting, just moving it around. And I would go do it when I was drawn to do it. And I would write on my computer. Sometimes I'd end up doing the outline first, sometimes I'd end up doing the lessons, and then the outline would come, but it would just be, what do I want to put in here? And then I'd get ideas and I'd add to it. I'd constantly be on my notes, on my phones and adding something. Or I'd say something in a session and think, oh, that should go in. That lesson. So it was just this birthing process for each course except for the depression one like I said, which just came out. I couldn't believe it. And then I would write every word, like writing a book. They're baby books. They're kind of books, really. And with workbook because you need a process at the end or a meditation or for me, writing journaling prompts, all kinds of things. And then I would set out to record. I mostly recorded at the studio near my house which is in my engineer's home. And once Insight Timer said the courses need to be professionally recorded that's when I started going to his place. That was extra work because I'd have to go there and be hydrated, bring snacks and pay him while I'm snacking because I can't go that many hours without eating personally and just do it from his house, from his studio. One course I did at a studio that turned out not to be that good. And it was so mouth sounds and static. It just sounded terrible. And it was up there and I didn't realize till years later I had heard it. But I think I was in a fog. Sometimes you'll listen to things later and think, how did I miss that? I don't know if that happens to you. How did I miss that on editing? I'll tell you a funny story about editing recently. And so I did a lot of recording there. Well, then COVID happened and so then he helped me buy this microphone. Well, he suggested he didn't help me buy it. He told me what to buy. Sounded like he chipped in with me. And then I started doing it from home and then send emailing it to him and then he would do his magic. But my funny story about editing was somehow in my getting over overeating course which has been on Insight Timer for years now. I messed up. How did I miss it? How did he miss it? How did I miss it in editing? How did I think I don't know how many thousands of people have listened to it. Nobody told me until recently. I mean, I was mortified that I was doing an affirmation meditation at the end of a lesson and it was supposed to say I don't have to be perfect and somehow I don't have to got cut out. And so it says, be perfect. Someone said to me in lesson such and such I was really in this peaceful state. And then I got so jarred when you said be perfect. Because I don't think that's what this I haven't heard you say that in this course. And I'm thinking that's like the opposite of what I stand for. How did 10,020 I don't know how many people have taken the class. Nobody tell me. And how did I miss it in editing? Because I listen to every that's back to how you do it. He edits it. I listen, I send it back. I need more space in this. I need a little less space. Take out that sentence. I don't like it. It's such a process, as you know, but I missed that sentence, and it said, be perfect for however many thousands of people. Listen to that affirmation meditation. And I couldn't try fast enough to get him to change it. And I thought, I don't have to be perfect, like, say those words to myself. My meditation, my courses do not have to be perfect. And I had to live with it saying be perfect for however many I think it was weeks because he was out of town. So there you have it.
Lou: I can feel that, knowing that, I could imagine what that would be like, to know that this is out there, then here, and then imagine all the people that heard it like this, and what did they think? What a meta lesson for you to really live it and not have to be perfect. That's such a great story. That's such a great story. Yeah. Your process is much more like mine. I actually haven't gone to a studio. I don't know if I snuck in the radar there, because I don't know what we give up when we do that. Is there's, like, a little pressure now? We're in a different space, we're in a different energy, different thing. And, yeah, I've been fortunate where an audio editor has done okay, and it feels like each course sounds different. Sometimes feels it better, sometimes worse. But I'm definitely like you in the crafting of it and trying to really in doing so. I think it also packs as much in in the short amount of time that we have rather than just kind of just filler words necessary to take away time.
Andrea: Yeah. I was really grateful when Insight timer took away the minimum or maximum time constraints on the lessons, because I found that really hard. I think it was, like, needed to be more than seven and less than.
Lou: 14 or something like that in the early days. Yeah, it was really hard.
Andrea: Once they took that down, I went back to my getting over overeating, and I made a couple of those babies 20, because I had so much more I wanted to say on certain topics. And I know it's nice to have shorter bite size for people's schedules and stuff, but there's just some topics that need to be, for me, a little bit longer.
Lou: So you've written multiple books. You just mentioned your writing process, which was interesting, where you don't set the time to write, you're not making it happen. So I'm curious, is that the same way you've done your books? Do you have a writing practice, or is it just like, I guess how do you write a book without getting yourself in the chair and forcing yourself to write?
Andrea: That's a great question. They sort of came out of me as a result of my work with clients. Well, my first book, the Don't Diet live at Workbook. That's decades, decades old. We just revised it because it was some stuff in there I just could not stand behind anymore. But my business partner, who I met in an eating disorders group, and we decided to form a little group practice on the side of our private practices. We were going to tell the county about our new practice, where we're going to do eating disorder groups in the county. And so we thought, well, why don't we do a few talks? So we'll rent a place, rent some space somewhere and put out some flyers and then do a talk for free about who we are and what we're offering in our groups. And then someone said, well, maybe you should have, like, a pamphlet or something to hand out at the talks so that when they leave, they have this pamphlet about your groups. And then someone said, Why don't you write a book? And we were like, oh, okay. We had no clue how to write a book. We started out we were sharing an office at the time because we couldn't afford our own offices. So we would leave ideas on post its on the desk that we were sharing. So when she came in for her sessions, she would write down some ideas, and then when I would come in, I would read her post its and then add some. So we ended up with, like, a.
Lou: Book of post its, like the old school Google Doc, right?
Andrea: Each person editing completely before mean, I think there must have been some kind of computers back then, those big know, those big gray monitor things. So our first book was ridiculous. We never, of course, didn't finish it for the talks. We finished it years later. We self published. We made 1000 copies. We just went back and forth. We rarely would meet together. No, that's not true. We would write chapters separately, and then we would meet at one of our houses and show each other what we wrote and then try to write it together, kind of make it give ideas back and forth. Sometimes it would take us hours on one sentence, and sometimes we would whip through a chapter and then we self published it. And then we had one box left, and somebody picked it up, somebody heard of it, and a publisher picked us up. So that was the first book. The second book that's the Don't Diet live at workbook. The second book, I was working with kids in my practice. I didn't want to work with young kids with eating disorders, but I was getting these calls from parents. I'd been working with teens, college age, young adults and adults for years as one of the eating disorder therapists in my town. And people were calling and saying, a doctor saying, I have a six year old who's got an eating disorder. I have a seven year old who won't go to school because she hates her body. I have a seven year old boy who's like in the back of the car doing push up sit ups because he wants six pack ABS. The craziness from the culture because of online dribbled down to these poor kids. And so I would say, Well, I don't work with kids. I had never been a child therapist. So I would call the child therapist in town and say, can you take this case? And they would say, I don't work with eating disorders. So here it's like, they don't work with eating disorders and I don't work with kids. And I just kept thinking, somebody's got to do this. So I just thought, I guess it's going to be me. So I started trying to come up with rhymes and cute little stories. Not trying. It just sort of came out of me. It was like, again, I was like, oh, I could tell there's a cute little rhyme I could talk about looking in the mirror. And so it just started coming out of me. And I was doing this in sessions with little kids and it was helping them. And so that became my children's book, breaking the I Feel Fat Spell. And then the getting over overeating became my new course. So that's a lot of information. I don't know if that's more than you wanted, but there it is.
Lou: It's another example of how you listen to the whispers and you're listening to what life is giving you and also what's emerging from you. I think that's if I'm already thinking of a great message from this podcast, to be in the space where you're able to do that, and it sounds like to be in that peace of mind is an access point to it. I'm sure if there's a lot of stuff happening, it's harder to listen to what the universe is giving you or to what's emerging from within you.
Andrea: Yeah. It's harder to hear yeah. Let alone listen to yeah.
Lou: So, Andrea, we're coming up towards the end of our time. I want to respect your time and this has been such a fun conversation. I'd love to just open up space. I don't know if there's anything we didn't get a chance to talk about or as you think about maybe the person listening who's getting into growing themselves in their craft and wellness meditation, something they want to share their gifts in this way. Is there anything comes to mind that you wish you would have known starting out earlier on your journey?
Andrea: That's a great question. My journey as a therapist or my journey as a meditation teacher?
Lou: Either or.
Andrea: Well, as a therapist, I wish that I had broadened my spectrum and not just been the eating disorders lady that would have been because after years and years and years and years, it's nice to work with other issues as a meditation teacher. I don't know if I said this on the recording or before we started, but I just wish someone would have told me. Hydrate hours before you record, not like ten minutes. And don't talk directly into the mic, talk past it. And you don't have to be perfect these recordings. Just speak from your heart, and that comes through, have cushioning around you. Just do what you love. That's really what I do. And I'm so blessed to have been able to make a living as a private practice therapist in my county. I'm so blessed because I know a lot of people can't they have to work for agencies or have other jobs and yeah, I think the theme of this talk really has been follow your heart. Follow your heart. And if there's no answer there, don't pull it out, don't press it down. Just do your day. Treat your body as well as you can. Try to quiet the mind as much as possible so there's room to hear the wisdom of our hearts.
Lou: So beautiful. Andrea, what are you creating now? Are you working on another course, a book? Are you just focused on what does your day look like nowadays?
Andrea: That's a great question. Oh, creating peace. I have an aging mom, so I'm putting a lot of time into that right now, traveling to go see her. So there's a few things in the oven, like a couple of meditations. No book. I do try to write a blog a month for Psychology Today, so that's always in the till. I could be out in the forest hiking, and an idea will just come to me. Or a lot of times I'll be in a session with a client or continually repeating something in my classrooms that I think, oh, that could be a blog or that could be a meditation. So that's what I really use, what comes to me or what I say or what I think if something feels important that I say to myself or that I or helpful, then it will come out to be a meditation or a blog. But I don't pressure myself. And I used to think I have to come out with a new whatever, it's been so long. And I think, no, if I never did another blog or meditation again, that would be totally fine. And that really takes the pressure off because I just don't feel creative when I'm pressuring myself.
Lou: That's a beautiful note to end us on. And I guess lastly, I know you don't do unless you're in California, you might be able to work with Andrea as a patient or client, but where, I guess, can people find you? Obviously insight Timer Andrea walkter and website, I believe is just your name.
Andrea: Net.
Lou: Okay.
Andrea: And I do like I said in the classrooms, as you've mentioned, I'm sure that Insight Timer courses have interactive classrooms on the web. And I just love that feature. So if someone does take my courses or any one of them, then I can support them in the classroom. And I love doing that.
Lou: That's the best to actually voice message back people. It's super fun.
Andrea: Yes. Or type. Sometimes I'll just do a response and it's almost like a blog, my response, because I just want to give them everything I have on their question and then that sometimes becomes a blog. So it's really interesting. I think you said that once, that sometimes things morph into other things, right? Something you're writing for a meditation, but then it becomes something you write or put out somewhere else. So it's just like letting it come out and then see where it wants to go.
Lou: Totally. I mean, content like that stuff can work in so many different ways, so it's like building off of repackaging things. I just released just two of my last courses have all been blogs that I put a lot of energy to. They've kind of been standalone blogs. And then I'm like, I can create a story out of this and it becomes like a course on happiness and fulfillment and so, yeah, just learning how to repackage and connections is part of the journey. So that's really awesome.
Andrea: Thank you. Thank you for having me. This has been lovely and easy and just enjoyable, so thank you.
Lou: It's been enjoy. Thanks Andrea. And to everyone listening, thanks for being on this journey and we'll talk again soon.