Why Meditation Is The Future of Coaching w/ Sura Kim
Sura is a highly experienced Meditation Coach and Trainer, who is passionate about helping people heal through the practice of meditation. She is the founder of the Sura Flow Meditation Coaching method which has been taught to thousands of students all around the world.
GIFT FOR YOU
If you’re a meditation teacher or coach who wants to create unique meditations people listen to over and over again, enroll in my free course Meditation Script Mastery
Music Credit: Nova by River Roots - https://www.youtube.com/riverroots
Podcast Transcript
Lou: Hello there, friends. Welcome to another episode of the Art and Business of Meditation podcast. I am your host, Lou Redmond, and today I am so excited for our guests, we have Surah. Surah is a highly experienced meditation coach trainer who is passionate about helping people heal through the practice of meditation. She's the founder of Surah Flow Meditation Coaching method, which has been brought and taught to thousands of students around the world. Sura discovered meditation while working at a high stress life on Wall street. And after receiving healing from her personal practice, she left the corporate life to study meditation in the countryside of Asia. And through her practice, she developed a signature approach, a softer, effortless practice called Sura Flow, which I'm sure we'll talk about here. So, Surah, thanks for taking the time. Welcome to the show.
Sura: Thank you so much for having me, Lou. I'm honored to be here.
Lou: Sarah, when someone asks you, what do you do? How do you respond to that question?
Sura: Well, the easy answer is I'm a meditation coach and trainer.
Lou: Yeah, what kind of meditation? If they pondered a little bit more and say, okay, well, yeah, what kind of meditation do you teach or what? Tell me more about that.
Sura: I describe it as a flow meditation. And just because that's more accessible for people to understand. And essentially, Surah flow is a heart centered, energy based practice, and it's healing. It is feminine, has feminine energy, and it's a softer way to practice where you're more connected to your heart, your body and your energy.
Lou: Let's talk a little bit about that. As you mentioned, that it's a more feminine practice. And maybe speaking to what do you see normally in meditation trainings? Maybe just describing the difference between what's a masculine practice versus some of the.
Sura: Feminine practices or the masculine practices tend to be more mentally focused. It's that mental effort, concentration, having a technique to wrap your mind around. And it was something I noticed a lot when I was traveling through Asia, was just this level of rigor, discipline, austerity. You know, it's about control, restraint, transcendence. And the feminine way is a lot more of like the dropping in and the softness and the gentleness and the nurturing and the sensuality being allowed to go into that space, not restricting our sexual energy and power. And also with some of the ancient traditions, we learn these values and beliefs of silence and selfless service and our desires, we gotta pull back our desires. We gotta control them. And in today's modern world, with modern women, this is about expression, speaking our mind, sharing our voice, our gifts, being in our power. And owning our desires and that that's okay. And so I think we, it's really important to examine closely the beliefs that you're adopting through spiritual practice, because I do believe it's easy to, for the self, the true self, to even get washed away in some of our traditional practices. I noticed that when I came back from Asia, I went from being a really passionate, vivacious, opinionated, strong woman to just being very subdued and passive and go with the flow and neutral and can't have an opinion about anything because it's your ego. And with that, all my reproductive health went way out of balance as a woman. I stopped having my period, and it was because I wasn't. I was following a script, an ancient script versus listening to my body as a woman. And most of all of the ancient practices of meditation have all been authored by men from a male perspective. And biologically, men and women, even neurologically, were really different, were wired differently. And so what might really work for masculine energy doesnt necessarily foster and nurture whats needed for feminine energy, especially today.
Lou: Well, its a little interesting in the way im holding some of these things in my mind because I think youre so right in the, I know ive been on a few different buddhist meditation retreats, and its almost like to be a Buddhist Dharma teacher, you almost have to talk like this. And it's like, almost, as I call it, the buddhist beige. Like there's no, there's no personality or energy or passion. And in some ways, though, like, that's kind of what you're speaking to. But if anything, if I'm thinking of what, like a masculine energy, that that's actually not a masculine energy. Like, it's actually not, it doesn't have this structure and fire neutered.
Sura: It's kind of a sterilized energy. Right. And that's how I felt that it was, yeah. Sterilizing energy. And I noticed that, too. I call it Zen zombie, when you're just kind of like talking and it's just like, and there's just nothing. There's no life and vitality and, you know, energy and aliveness and passion and, you know, and we see that even today. And some of the teachings, the way that they're imparted, you know, it's like very mental and intellectual and, you know, with, it's quite serious and solemn and, I mean, it's, everybody has their own way that they want to live, but I knew that that wasn't my path.
Lou: Yeah. So this idea of, and I actually think I have a talk around claiming your desire. So it's something I've explored, but there's also still a part of me that maybe will play like the devil's etiquette. Well, that's. Is this my ego's desire? Is this, like, this part of me that's desired, that I need to actually, you know, really come to wholeness? And if I'm in my wholeness, then I maybe I don't desire this type of thing. So I'd love to hear you maybe speak more about what were some of the desires maybe you allowed yourself to have and how you think of even just the reflection to someone that might have that kind of view of, oh, it's just my ego that has this desire, like you spoke to a little bit before.
Sura: I like to make the distinction between higher desires and lower desires. And lower desires are those egoic attachments that. That bind us, that create that karmic suffering. So, yeah, I like Cheetos. I want to eat Cheetos all day long, and I love Netflix. I want to binge watch all day, all night long, and. But is that really serving you? Is that leading you to liberation and wholeness and balance? Higher desires are spiritual desires that we may have to be of service, to live from a place of creative expression, to have peace. And so this is more of what I would refer to as spiritual desires. And even you might have a desire to provide for your family, so you need to generate income and abundance and material wealth. And that. That's okay. You know, given what is that intention to have that desire? Where is that intention coming from? Is it from a place of greed? And I don't have enough, and I'm afraid, you know, we're going to just feeling from the place of which you have that desire. And so if it's constant lust and desire for sex all day long, of course. But do you have a desire for your partner? Yes. You know, or the people that you have agreements with? It's okay. We are born with those desires. And then if we say that sexual desire is wrong, we trap all of that. We repress it and control it within our being, and then that leads to sexual violence and a lot of other things that obviously are not healthy for our society.
Lou: Yeah. So you're even speaking to. I mean, in Buddhist would say, like, the middle way, but in a really healthy way. Right. Where it's not, like, so much, and it's also checking the intention of where you're coming from it. Right. Like, I see your book behind you. Surah flow, where I can imagine that the desire to write a book about something is coming from this true creative expression, not like I need to look at me and look, I'm an author and whatnot. And maybe people write books for that reason, too, but it's really owning that there is this, this, that. How would you help people, like, really own that desire if they feel blocked? Let's say someone listening to this has some block around allowing them to desire or to have or however you want to look at that, how might you speak to them?
Sura: Well, I'd ask for them to be present with their desire. What are they noticing? Where is it in their body and where is it coming from? And when they're tuning into that desire, what do they feel in their heart? I like to practice this, where you place a hand on your heart and you feel. And you feel, if your heart feels expanded and open and soft, and then you feel, if it feels sort of empty and contracted and there's no energy there. And I've noticed that when I make choices, I just place my hand on my heart and I just feel. And when it's right, the heart, you feel an opening through the heart space, because the heart has intelligence and the body has intelligence.
Lou: Yeah. Would you trust the heart more than the body? I know it's a weird question, and it might not make sense, but just kind of following this thread, because I think some people, like, well, shouldn't I be listening to my gut? And so, like, discerning. And we can get into a whole different ideologies around if your, your human design might change different things of how you're sensing things or, you know, there's probably a lot of ways to, like, talk about this stuff, but, yeah. How do you think of, like, the gut decision versus the heart decision?
Sura: Well, they're both connected. You know, this is, you know, it's. We have these three brains. We have our human brain, we have the heart brain, we have the gut brain, and, and they talk to each other. But the, the problem is, is that we listen to what's in our head and we allow that to lead, and we don't check in with what's happening in our heart and our gut. And a lot of times when we have anxiety and depression, that's all being manifested in IB's irritable bowel syndrome. And so it's really important that, and also we can listen through our emotions. So if you are emotionally available, then your intuition is likely tapped in, because our intuition flows through our feelings and our emotions. And this is why it's so important that we allow these deeper feelings and emotions to rise to the surface of our awareness and our feeling, rather than repress, control and transcend them. But actually listen very carefully and make the distinction, and then we can get tuned in. Because I think what we're missing in meditation, in a lot of our tradition, is the instinctual, intuitive nature. And being able to go right there, you know, it's become very much, you know, about this mindfulness, and we can call it heart fullness. And really, when that decision is aligned, it's going to feel right in the. In the gut and the heart. You'll feel it both. And you can even do a body test. So you can do a heart test and a body test and. And both. It's good to do both. And in the body, it just feels really grounded. Like, when you say it, you feel solid in your body, you feel grounded, you feel embodied. And then the difference is when you say something else that isn't really true for you, you sort of feel disassociated. You sort of feel like it's just this idea you're grasping for. It has a very different energy. And so that's what sura flow teaches people, is to get attuned to their heart, their body and their energy, and to learn the practice of meditation through these three gateways. And that it can be a lot more effective than just trying to be present from the mind. The mind is the hardest place. It's the bad neighborhood, because that's where all the thinking and crazy logic and analysis is going on of past, future. And it's really hard to get out of that space. But you can drop in and go in other ways. For example, through our breath. There are other gateways through our faculties of visualization, imagination, and also intention.
Lou: I checked your blog and I saw the first post was in 2010. I was like, wow, that's. I was partying in a fraternity in 2010, and you're just starting to write about meditation and coaching at this time. And so what was it like in this space in 2010? And maybe also this is maybe an opportunity to speak to that. Zero to one, I was doing this. I was at Wall Street. I went to Asia. Now I'm teaching it. Like, where more of, like, that frame of what was the shift from where you were to now teaching meditation? And then 2010, when you wrote that first blog post, like, what's. What's happening in this space at that time?
Sura: It was just like this crazy adventure. That's how it felt. Like, I didn't know what was really going on. I had no idea that you could be a meditation teacher or coach. That. That those words, meditation coach, weren't even in my awareness at that time. And there was very few people practicing and knowing very much about meditation. And so when I first started learning for myself and talking to my clients on Wall street about it, they were all fascinated. They wanted to know about my meditation retreats. I started sending them meditation books, and I would just talk about it, talk about it, talk about it like Buddha radio, because I was so excited about how much it had changed my life. And I just kept talking about. And people said, well, why don't you teach me? And so everywhere I went, people wanted to learn. And I kept saying, okay, well, I'm not a yoga teacher. I'm not a meditation teacher. I kept kind of saying those things over and over again because it was very difficult for me to own that. I felt like an imposter because I was still learning. The reality was, I was still learning. I still considered myself a beginner. And then all of a sudden, I was thrusted into the role of teaching. And people really, really loved it. So I had no idea how to teach meditation. It was even very difficult to google how to do it at that time. I remember there were no resources. And then quite shortly after that, people started asking me to train them to teach meditation. And I was thinking, oh, my God. I mean, so I had no basis. Everything was from self teaching. So the majority of that was just me coming up with a lot of the material and the content and trying to conceptualize it in a very simple and accessible way for people to digest it, learn it for themselves, and then teach others. So in 2010, it was still very new. It was. And I see every year how much more popular mindfulness and meditation are becoming. But back then, it was pretty new. It was a novel kind of practice, kind of how yoga was 25 years ago.
Lou: We have a little bit of a similar background in that I quit a job and was just sharing how much meditation benefited me, and people were just asking me to lead them through meditations. That's really how I started. I just started through guiding other people and just practicing in that way. And I didn't even have the money at the time to do any kind of formal training. And so I'm a big believer in just starting, especially if the universe is opening that for you. And people are curious. I think we can always be an introduction to people. We don't have to be thich nhat hanh, right? We can be like an introduction where we're at as we keep being a student. And so I hear you being clear around meditation teacher, meditation coach, and I hear you on these labels. I think they're important to think about how we think about ourselves. And I tend to if people, when I talk to people, like, I actually veer away from meditation teacher because I really don't have a big interest in teaching people how to meditate. Like, that doesn't really light me up. I consider myself more of a meditation creator. Like, I see it as more of an art form in that way. And so you call yourself a meditation coach. Now? I'm also a coach that I might say a life coach and that we do a lot of meditative practices in. And so I'm just curious how, what is a meditation coach and the way that you teach it? And for you, what's the difference between a meditation coach, a meditation teacher, and a life coach?
Sura: Wow. Okay, let me see. Hopefully I can remember all those questions. So let me start with meditation coach. Meditation coach is someone who. It's, it's just exactly how it sounds. It's the combination of meditation and coaching. And the purpose is to raise awareness and consciousness of both the client and the coach. So, and it's also considered an art form. And in traditional, I guess, ideas of therapy, they're sort of like, I'm the therapist, you're the client. And, you know, there's a little bit of a hierarchy that's there. And same with teacher and student. It's, I have the knowledge, and it's a more one way that you're delivering that information. So as a teacher, you're teaching the content, and it's more of a one way distribution of the knowledge. And in a coaching relationship, it's like an infinity symbol, because really it's going back and forth. There's no assumption. It's peer to peer, human to human. We both like and practice meditation, and let's utilize this tool to connect more deeply and access your true self, your true insights. And when somebody is in a state of peace, in a state of relaxation, in a state of presence, it's easier for them to access the deeper insights. And you can say that is coming from your soul, your true self, your intuition. But what I've noticed and what the distinction is with life coaching and also therapy, for example, is that there's a lot of talking and processing through talking. And once you come into stillness and silence and that spaciousness that's there, you know, when the mind starts to take a backseat because the mind holds on to talking and talking kind of blocks the flow of that higher awareness. And so when you do then ask the questions, those powerful questions, the insight comes instantly. It's a very simple one word, knowing, energy, insight. And it's an embodiment of that which is really different than coming to resolution through talking.
Lou: Yeah, this, it really aligns with how I do coaching, even though I might call it more life coaching, but it really is different for me. I know it's meeting also people where they're at like some pm's, it's going to be really hard for someone to slow down that much and some people can just boom, they're right in presence. And I have a kind of a methodology, not my methodology, but something I work on, but it sounds very resonant to some of that work. And so how did you come up with like oh, this is the thing for Seraflo and how do you communicate it too? And I'm sorry to ask you like ten questions at once, but um, it's cause what I'm hearing from you, it sounds like there, there is this coaching, life coaching teaching that you're doing in a different way. And so I'm just wondering your decision to market it as meditation versus marketed as life coaching, but give people what they need. Cause I in, in total honest, I think there's more of a market for people looking to be life coaches than there are to be um, meditation coaches, even though these worlds can be very together. Um, so yeah, I guess I'm curious to hear more how you think about what you're offering, um, with suraflow and um, maybe how it crystallized to, to have. You can even take us back to like, okay, you have this blog and all and how that journey started to grow. So again, I'm sorry I asked like ten questions at a time, but um, take it wherever you want to take it.
Sura: I really firmly believe that meditation is the future of coaching and that people really benefit from these tools of self awareness. So it's one thing when they're with you and they're having those insights, but when they're not with you, what do they have? What are they doing to anchor themselves to ground, to find peace. And so that's something they can develop for themselves when they're at home every day and they can practice the tools. So that's what a meditation coach also provides is guidance for a practice that works for them and their lifestyle. And I do agree with the approach of meet people where they are. Don't try to. And I am also a big fan of small changes that you integrate versus big, huge life changes that most people can't hold. So that is an aspect of that. And then what ended up happening is I was teaching the meditation coaching approach, and I realized that that was the same approach of Surah flow, the practice which is first establishing the flow of energy, that connection and flow of life force energy moving, that's always present in your physical body. And now some people have no connection to energy. They're not even sure what that is. So if you want just an example of that, that's just rub your palms of your hands together really vigorously and just feel. When you pull the palms of your hands apart, you can feel that there's this magnetic energy. And we all have this. It's electricity that moves through our body like a superhighway system. So when this energy is blocked, what I've noticed is that people come in, they feel blocked, and it's in their energy. And not to go too much into the chakras, but the chakras represents aspects of our consciousness. So when we're blocked in certain areas, like, for example, I noticed that women have a lot of blocks around their throat, and they have thyroid issues and neck pain. And it just. The list goes on. And then at the same time, they're really afraid to speak their truth and to express their emotions and to be vulnerable because they are afraid of the consequence of that. So that shows up. That's something that if you work with energy, you can see that very clearly. And once you have that energy flow, that relaxation that allows you to drop into stillness. And that's the second step of surflow and also for meditation coaching, which is deep listening. And we call it heart listening and really listening from the heart, not listening with the ears, not listening with our mind and what we're going to say, but really opening up into the heart space with love. Because when somebody is listening to you with love and you practice that receptivity, a lot of people, I would say they just aren't able to listen well, right? And when we don't listen well, what happens? I mean, stuff falls apart. They go haywire in our life. And we know when we say, oh, I had a feeling, you know, they had an intuition, but they didn't follow it. And so it's about heart listening and being receptive and learning that skill of receptivity, because that also awakens our intuition, which is connected to our true power. And then the third step is intention, and that's something that we close a meditation coaching session with is what's your intention? What's your prayer? Because if you don't have a positive focus, then you're going to be pulled out of focus all day long. Our world is set up to distract us 24/7 so if you have a positive anchor, a positive purpose, an intention that allows you to be connected to your deeper self, and it empowers you to be present and focused and to channel your energy in a positive way.
Lou: Do you have, as you started to move away from this corporate life, was it easy to just, okay, now I'm starting to make money. What were some maybe challenges or even synchronicities, like, kind of, okay, maybe even if there is a challenge, there's still this sign, like, okay, this is still my path and I should keep on it. So how long, I guess, did that process take and any kind of interesting stories from going? Yeah, sure.
Sura: I mean, when I came back from traveling through India, what happened before I left? And I told the partners at my company that I would like to go to yoga training. And I went first to a yoga training in Costa Rica, and then I went to yoga trainings in India and other places. And they said, sounds like you're going through a midlife crisis. And they had given me a partnership position, which I had declined because I wanted to study meditation and yoga. And so they just told me then that we'll retain your partnership and you can come back a year later, but we won't maintain. I had a level of revenue that I had generated for the company, a couple million dollars. And so they said, your book of business will be gone, but you can start over. Well, you know, retain you as partner, and you can still be part of the company. And so I anticipated coming back. And then when I came back, I also had a few other job offers from other Wall street companies. And every time I'd pick up the phone to call them to follow up, I'd start crying. Like, even before I picked up the phone, it was just like. And it was such an unexpected response. It was like I could not dial, actually make the phone call, because I just start sobbing. And I'm like, what is this? I mean, I need a job. I need a way to live and sustain myself. So it didn't occur to me.
Lou: To.
Sura: Not go back until that happened. And then shortly after that, one of my old clients from Wall street, who managed a hedge fund asked me to come in and teach him meditation because he's really stressed. And he ended up giving me quite a bit of money in a multitude of ways that have helped. And I think that because I started working with him as a client, and then I started working with other people, and I thought, oh, maybe this is something I could do. Um, but I did learn a hard lesson in it because in that time around 2010, I was teaching yoga meditation in LA. I had my own executive coaching practice, and I started to get burned out because, you know, you're not making that big paycheck, right? Like, I was literally, what I actually worked when I was on Wall street in terms of hours, was much less. And here you are now, driving. You're going to drive like 45 minutes through traffic, get set up for a yoga class that takes half an hour. Then the class is an hour, then you have to clean up for a half an hour, then students want to talk to you for another half hour. Now you've made dollar 45 in three and a half hours. You know, it's like the math just did not add up. And then, you know, times that times however many classes you're teaching. So I think it, it posed a really, and it still poses the amount of energy you expend providing coaching and healing and meditation to make that commensurate with what you're actually putting in and what people in society are willing to pay for that. Now. It's still finding its reconciliation because I don't think people realize if you're a tax attorney or a lawyer, you make $500 an hour. Nobody questions it. But if you're changing someone's life and you're making an impact on the quality of their life and their well being, it's like they still want it for free. And so it's really interesting, like, navigating that dance of what people expect and how that's been supported in our cultures and ancient cultures, like, where gurus were, they were able to subsist through donations, right? So, yeah, it's been a real fine dance. And I, what I had decided during that time, because I really loved what I did, was I would just use up all my life savings to teach. I was like, you know, I've, I've. I've lived very poorly in the past, and even though I had made a lot of money on Wall Street, I thought, you know, maybe I'll just do it all over again and start all over again. And I could, I could do that. This is really fun. I really want to learn. And that's how committed I felt to learning meditation. So I just decided, hey, if this goes through my life savings. We're going to do it. I'm going to do it. And, yeah, I would say the universe has really tested me a lot, and so far, things have turned out well. But it's tough. I think, for a lot of creators and coaches after the pandemic, it's been really hard, and I have seen that contraction, as well.
Lou: Our stories are different in that way, in that I left my corporate job was, like a $40,000 a year job, so I didn't have, like, a big, I never had, like, a big thing that I was trying to lifestyle creep and come back to. So I was fortunate in that way and really left with not a sound. I think I had a $1,000 in the bank. It was a real dramatic way that I left. And so, like, actually, I think the supporting myself in a very fundamental level was such a big thing that I needed to figure out, and for good or bad reasons of, like, well, this is, there's no other choice but to figure it out. And it sounds like you, you know, having that executive coaching, I mean, what an, you know, when we talk about in the coaching world of different clients are going to value different things at different prices, right. To. To that hedge fund manager, you know, if you can have him more calm where he can be more calm during the day and he could potentially make, you know, millions of dollars more, what's that worth to him to feel more calm? Right. It's so. It's, you know, so it's great that you had at least set a good in with that market in the beginning, maybe to, like, create a little bit more. To create at least have that leg right? Because I've been there, too, teaching yoga. Oh, my gosh. Shout out to any yoga teachers. And even when I taught meditations in meditation studios, it's just, it's just not sustaining. Like, it just. There's no way you can be a full time yoga teacher if you don't own your studio or don't have a solid private practice. It's just like, you really are grinding if you're teaching. It's such a, it's such an exhausting practice, too. Like meditation, at least you're just sitting there, but teaching yoga, you're moving around. You might be engaging with people. So shout out to any yoga teachers that are, that are on here. I feel. I feel the grind. I've been there. Um, and so when does your own training company come into the picture? Like, what, what. When's that shift of, okay, I'm doing this for other people, and now I'm going to train people. And was that the financial, I don't want to call it a windfall, but did that help when you started making that pivot? Was that like really supportive or, or was it just a natural kind of flow to what you were doing to this next stage?
Sura: It was an interesting natural flow. And I would say, I just wanted to make a comment about what you said, that you were made to make this work that you committed to. You didn't want to go back to your corporate job. And I think that's a very pivotal moment when you make a commitment. And I think that is what's needed is a level of dedication and commitment to make anything like meditation or any of the spiritual arts work. So with the meditation trainings, I, so what happened was I ended up leaving LA because I was so burnt out and I thought, this is not the way. And I, you know, and it was just, I didn't know that that would really exhaust and burn me out. And just like you said, being a yoga teacher, meditation teacher at a studio, it's, it's really hard work. It's really hard. And even today I see people work for almost minimum wage to do that kind of work. So what ended up happening is I left and then I decided I was going to go and retreat and that I really needed retreat. I really needed to be in nature. And that's when I went to Salt Spring island. And I was sort of in the middle of, of nowhere. And people had started asking shortly after 2010 for these trainings. They wanted to know what was that integration between meditation coaching and energy healing. And they said, can you teach us? And I thought, I don't know how to do that. And then, and then I had this idea, maybe I could teach over the telephone because here I was, like in the middle of nowhere. I really wanted to be in retreat. And I started the first training through freeconferencing.com. So it was a free line on a bad Internet. And then what else? I used email. That was my course platform, Google. And, and so that's how it started was I had never done even a workshop. And then I started out the gate with these six month integrated life coach trainings and then I was on the road. I remember I was traveling up through the west coast and then I had started a second training as I got more established in Salt Spring island and I had an Internet connection and all of those things. And so that's how it began. And I didn't think that I was going to make that into career. I thought I was just offering that to people as a service because they wanted to learn. So I just started teaching everything that I knew and, and then it phased into meditation coach training. So again, I stayed in Salt Spring and retreat so that I could really learn meditation. And then I had the thought one day it would be nice if I could make this into a business like a real business established. And it was shortly thereafter I met somebody who's like a patron, and he was the first angel investor for serif flow. So that's how it really kind of got off the ground. And that allowed us to invest in marketing and things like that. And even in that first year, we were able to make that back. And so it was more successful, I think, than I even thought it would be. And it expanded year by year. And now it's a very saturated space of meditation teacher training. But where our niche really is is the meditation coach training because that's the unique difference is adding the coaching together with meditation. So that's how it all started. It was really through a series of synchronicities and just saying yes and not really knowing and putting everything together is sort of like an improvisation.
Lou: Yeah, I think it's a really unique offering, the way that you're holding both because I'm part of a meditation teacher training as kind of a mentor, someone else who leads it. But it's more in the traditional teacher sense. And a lot of the students struggle with the one on one aspect of it and learning one on one, which it sounds like your approach really supports having that one on one because its maybe a little bit more of a method in that way. Whats something you wish you knew about business earlier on now that youve been in it, I guess. When did actually the training start? Mid 2010s around there is when?
Sura: Yeah, it started sort of informally through the free stuff. Yeah, that's how it started a good amount of time.
Lou: So, like, what's something? And I know the landscape has changed, but, you know, if you can kind of go back and someone else that's maybe starting their meditation coaching business or like, what's something you wish you knew back then, really?
Sura: So I felt like I took a very wayward approach, which was what I needed. I spent a lot of time as a recluse and hermitage and nature, and I did give up all of the worldly. I mean, I was ready to abandon all of it to pursue the study of meditation. I wouldn't necessarily recommend that for everybody. I don't think I needed to do it that way. But that's, that was the way I approached it. I really would if I were to guide anybody else or coach anybody else about that who is very passionate about meditation. Meditation will change your life. And, you know, if you're going to meditate for several hours a day, that's going to change a lot of aspects of your life. And so you have to be ready to integrate those aspects. And for people who can meditate like that, it's a level of privilege because you have the time and the space, right? You don't have responsibilities. You're not taking care of other people. You're not having to be wrapped up in that worldly life. So I would say, you know, keep, keep a foot in the world. Like, if you're going to spend a lot of time meditating, make sure that you're also doing another side job and keep yourself afloat. Don't give it all up just for meditation, because meditation is best learned when it's integrated and you know, how to integrate it back into the world. And when you just delve all the way into meditation and ignore the world, then it can be very difficult to re enter. It can be challenging because you're having to now integrate these different values and beliefs. So, um, that would be, what I would do different is spend less time in meditation, honestly. And I had to unlearn a lot of what I learned in Asia. So it was a lot of undoing that I felt, not just what I learned in Asia and traditional meditation, but in my life and in my culture. There's a lot of, you know, programming that you pick up from your culture, your ancestry. So I, I spent a lot of time in that and I wish I had started building and grounding through another way. So either through art or work, those are great ways to ground your practice. Meaning, you know, share what you're learning. You know, constantly, you know, build something while you're practicing, not to just build it, but to ground it. It's about spiritual grounding. And that's what, to me, money makes the world go around because we wouldn't deal with each other if it weren't for money. And money's okay, but it's our approach. What's the approach that we're taking?
Lou: Speaking of money, have you found you mentioned having to want to give everything up? But it also sounds like, coming from Wall street, I'm imagining you have a, who knows, not always the case, a decent relationship. It sounds like you've at least maybe in a space where you've let a lot into your life. You've allowed, you let yourself receive. And so as you went spiritual, like, did you feel like you couldn't receive? And like, how is that relationship to money come back?
Sura: I did, I guess.
Lou: Yeah.
Sura: Yeah. I noticed that when I went spiritual, it was like, and even today, I love to help people for free. I don't like, I don't see this need to make a lot of money from, you know, what, what I naturally like to do, so. But I know that it's important, and I've. I have seen the benefit of charging people and charging a lot for people to really absorb and receive the medicine from the work, and it is an exchange. So, yeah, I think that I did adopt this poverty attitude, which I think you can easily absorb when you're practicing in the spiritual communities and in traditional communities, that it's like this idea that money's bad and it's like a sin and that you shouldn't charge. If you're spiritual, it should always be free and self service and selfless. And I think that can be toxic because it's not realistic. We all have bills to pay now. I have a team, right? And I pay them, and I have a home that I have to pay for. So it's like, we have to be honest and realistic about what it takes and what it's worth and that it's okay to charge for the value of what we offer, which is tremendously valuable. And especially in the western world, people tend to value money, so when they invest in it, they really commit to it.
Lou: You mentioned having an investor, which is amazing, and putting that into marketing. Can you share more just on the more of a business end? Like what that, like, what was that marketing like? Was it ads? Was it social media group, people that can help you expand things? What did that look like for you?
Sura: Well, I have to be honest, it was almost like throwing money down the toilet because there were a lot of things we did that didn't work. So I didn't know, even though, and it's kind of embarrassing. I was an online Internet analyst for companies like Amazon, eBay, Infospace, at that time, AOL. And we invested in these technology companies, these online companies. Yet when it came time for me to launch my own online business, I found it really challenging. It was like just knowing up from down. I was so out of the tech world, I didn't even know how to post an Instagram post. I mean, it was literally, I didn't know hashtags, nothing. So I was starting from below ground zero is how I felt. So when I went to go launch this, it was like trying a lot of things that just didn't work. Anything from Facebook ads to Instagram. The things that ended up working for me and my business were Google. So it was like creating content for search engine optimization where people could find you because you're talking about these topics of meditation and then also YouTube. These were some of the most effective ways that, and I remember I did one YouTube video, you're not going to believe this. I did one YouTube video where I was coaching somebody in real time and just videotaped that and that one went more viral. I don't know where it is now. Well over 100,000 views. But I could fill entire trainings with the one video because people saw the one video and then they wanted to go into training. So I don't know what it was about that, but it's interesting to see what works. And then now I don't think anybody watches that video. And technology changes so quickly. Google Ads do not work for us anymore. I mean, it's just the landscape changes so quickly. I think email marketing is also suspect at this point. So just noticing less return and efficacy and emails.
Lou: Your SEO. I used to like scoff at SEO. I was like, this is not 2010, you can't do SEO anymore. And maybe because you started at that time, that's helpful. But that is how I found you both in searching business and meditation on YouTube and on Google. And I didn't even realize you were on insight timer as well. But I found more so off of that app. But I've only recently found I have one Google or post that is tracking on SEO that I've noticed some flow. Come in. I was like, hmm, maybe this isn't. Maybe I've been giving this crap in a way that is, there's still a potential here if you're creating good, a lot of good content and maybe just tailoring some, some keywords. So I've changed my mind on SEO recently and it's interesting you hear an email marketing. I'm still bullish on email. I love email. It's my favorite place to show up as I'm a big believer in like, cultivating and an email community. Did you find, you know, something that I've been debating recently and I kind of have made a decision on what I'm going to do. But did you start with like building community? Was it just through paid or was it, did you, did you have any organic in the beginning? I'm just curious if you found when you saw organic.
Sura: Yeah, in the beginning it was all organic, and then it wasn't until about, I want to say, 2016. 2017 that we started it more formally through a business. And so, yeah, when I say email marketing, it's still affected through our individual list. But when we pay for large publications, for example, that's where we see that it's not, not effective as much.
Lou: Got it. Like yoga journals, newsletter or something where it's not your community necessarily.
Sura: Right. Yeah.
Lou: Got it, got it, got it, got it. Did you notice when you started running ads, like, was there, did you treat your list differently? And this is a very selfish question because sometimes I'm debating this right now, like, did you find, like, a different energy and how you engaged with your list knowing that a lot of new people were coming from ads or did not really change your engagement with them?
Sura: No, it doesn't change. No, it's, I always try to add value through every email, but every email obviously also has a call to action. So, yeah, it's challenging, I think, walking that fine dharmic line between spirituality and business. I mean, wow, that's, it's talk about a slippery road. And there's been so many times I've kind of caught myself in a chinese finger trap of, you know, I'm stressing myself out over my meditation business. You know, it's just because there's now you're having to. Right, like, perform from what you love and that puts a lot of pressure and that takes out the joy. So a lot of times I find myself where I just need to reground and reset and remember, what is the intention, you know, what is realistic, what do I really want and what does it mean to be successful?
Lou: Any books, business, or art of meditation that you found helpful in building your meditation coaching business training company.
Sura: Books? Oh, that's an interesting question. I am from the school of hard knocks. I just learned from, I love it from life. I did not, I didn't read, uh, any books. Maybe that would have really helped me. Who knows?
Lou: Well, you now you run a. How big is your team right now?
Sura: Oh, my goodness. It's, it, we have freelancers too. So if you want to count all the freelancers and everybody, it's going to be around six to eight people at any given time.
Lou: What's it like navigating a team like that? Because I know a lot of people listening are probably still pretty solo. Maybe they just started thinking about, you know, a virtual assistant. I'm still with just a virtual assistant, so what's it like to run more of a expanded team?
Sura: Well, I have to really hand it off to my colleague Chella Rea. She is handling a lot of the program management operations of Seraflow, so she does manage the rest of the team members as well. I don't have to communicate as much, but I would say that's another thing that was a really big learning curve for me was the level of which we grew, both in terms of the overhead and people and navigating through the pandemic at the same time. Because I would say make sure you've got all the resources there and then scale back when you need to scale back as well. Because I realized for myself I enjoy business as well. I'm pretty good at it from my background. But you don't want to be doing too many things. And it's easy to split apart your energy in a lot of different directions. Once you start taking on all that extra responsibility of management and managing people, doing your books, running those emails, writing the content, doing the courses, you know, the trainings, it's all it can end up being a lot. So you have to really think about how you want to live and what your intention is for your life. My intention is simplicity. I like to have something that feels simple and joyful, and I don't need to have a lot of elements to feel successful because success for me is having peace and feeling a sense of oneness with what I'm doing and not feeling that pressure or the pressure to rush and to create and things like that. So kind of keep it all in check and that's what our practice helps us do.
Lou: Beautiful, sir. That's a perfect place to maybe wrap it up. Thank you so much for your wisdom. Thank you for the work you're doing. Cool to see and to be able to learn from you as well as you've been in this a little bit longer than I have. So I appreciate you taking the time. Do you want to share where people can find out more or things coming up, things that you're sharing?
Sura: I think it's suraflow.org or dot yes, suraflow.org. Suraflow.org. And feel free to come there and contact us. We'd love to hear from you.
Lou: Awesome. All right, everyone, thanks for listening and we will see you next time on another episode. Take care, friends.
Sura: Thank you so much. Lou.