Transforming Your Day Job Into Your Dream Job w/ Kate Mishcon
In this episode you will hear the inspiring story about how Kate turned her marketing role into a mindfulness role and is now developing curriculum that will bring mindfulness to students across the globe. We talk about the challenges of teaching mindfulness in corporate and educational settings, strategies for building resilience as a teacher, and the importance of personal support systems. Kate also shares her vision for expanding mindfulness programs to help more people build emotional regulation skills.
I'm excited that this is the first of the "community success series", where I highlight amazing things people I've coached are up to.
Takeaways:
Learn how Kate successfully integrated mindfulness into corporate and educational settings.
Learn how to pitch mindfulness with data-backed proposals for maximum impact.
Discover the value of having a teaching partner for confidence and effectiveness.
Gain insights into strategies for overcoming imposter syndrome in teaching.
Hear about Kate’s inspiring plans to expand mindfulness programs to new communities.
GIFT FOR YOU
If you’re a meditation teacher or coach who wants to create unique meditations people listen to over and over again, enroll in my free course Meditation Script Mastery
Music Credit: Nova by River Roots - https://www.youtube.com/riverroots
Podcast Transcript
Lou: Hello there. Dear listeners, friends, welcome to another episode of the Art and Business of Meditation podcast. I am your host, Lou Redmond, and today we have Kate Mishkan. This is such a fun interview to do with you. Let me read Kate's bio first. Kate is a mindfulness meditation teacher, resilience coach and speaker. Having worked in a range of leadership roles within international higher education, she now dedicates her time to delivering new resilience programs for her staff and students throughout their business. And she has also been a client of mine for a few years now. On and off she's been a member of Meraki Mastermind. And I wanted to have Kate on because witnessing what she's been able to do, bringing mindfulness and meditation in her company and on her journey and the success that she's found with it, I thought she's a great example of someone that I think would be really inspiring for people that are listening to hear. So, Kate, thanks for being on the show.
Kate: Oh, it's so great to be here, Lou. Thanks for having me.
Lou: Yeah. So, Kate, I'd love to hear your mindfulness journey. When, when does meditation and mindfulness enter the picture? Who. Who is the Kate Mishkan of the past? And yeah, yeah, anything you want to color in that?
Kate: Okay. Well, it's a long while. It's a long way back. It was probably 2005 and back then I had two teeny kids and I wasn't in the best place. I was really anxious, just struggling with feelings of being overwhelmed, being a working mum with two young kids. And I'd tried lots of things to help me, but therapy hadn't really helped me. Lots of other things hadn't really helped me. And I just stumbled by chance into a local yoga center in my area in London where I lived. And I saw a poster for this course, like Introduction to Mindfulness. And back then it really, especially in the uk, it really wasn't a thing that lots of people were talking about. And this poster, it just really pulled me in because it seemed quite normal, quite accessible, eight week course. So I went along and it was almost instantaneous for me. The teacher, this amazing man, Alastair Appleton, he was actually a TV presenter who had been on his own mindfulness journey and had found it really transformative. And we just immediately clicked. I just loved the way he taught. It was really simple and straightforward and it was just that first practice, something clicked in me. Just this different way to relate to my thoughts. And that's where it began.
Lou: And then, okay, you take this course Alistair Appleton, by the way, is the most amazing name. I have a friend name, I have a friend named Alister. And I'm like, I need to tell him I wish his last name was Appleton because that would be an epic name because it's more of a. It's a rarer name. So it's always fun to hear that. And so like you have the moment, you're able to bring more awareness to your thoughts. Okay, that's great. And you have an eight week course. But you know, it's 2005. There's not maybe insight timer or meditation apps that you can then continue on your own. Like, what is it? What does it look like to keep practicing at that? At that time I'm making a comment.
Kate: Like 2000 in the dark ages, like.
Lou: This has been, you know, thousands of years. People have been meditating. Like, what was it like to meditate in 2005?
Kate: Do you know what? That's such an. I've not really thought of that. I've not really gone back in my mind. But when I think about it, a lot of it was getting hooked on his teachings. So following him wherever he went, going on his retreats in Oxford, he ran this beautiful retreat in an old abbey in the countryside. So doing lots of that to keep my practice going, but lots of quiet meditation practice without any guidance because that wasn't really a possibility. And reading so obviously reading lots of books, but really it was him back then. I relied on his teachings to keep my practice going.
Lou: And what were you noticing in life? Like, was there, you know, were you just seeing like, wow, I'm going through my days in such a different way. I feel more connected. Was there any like, you know, glimpses of eternity, so to speak, where it's like these like, these big aha revelations or was it more of like a, like a Dan Harris 10% happier, just kind of like compounding over time?
Kate: Yeah, I would say it was more the Dan Harris model. Although there were some moments which I still think about. And it was when I was first taught loving kindness practice. And he taught it really beautifully. And just this sense of being able to support myself when I was struggling was something that I didn't even know was possible. So that was a real light bulb moment for me. And those practices have kept me going throughout those sort of 20 years. But it was more about this sense that I wasn't my thoughts. I had such a busy mind, just obsessive thinking and just thought that was it. There was no choice. And that's what he Helped me to see. So it was quite gradual and I'd say that my practice wasn't. It definitely wasn't a daily practice, but it became part of my life.
Lou: And so it's funny because I know a bit more about your story and the things that you've like grappled with around like the fears of teaching and, and you know, just like the who am I to teach? And just hearing you like, wow, you have, you've been meditating since 2005, like in so many ways. You have like, you know, 25 years. Right. 24 years of experience. That's that more experience than I have in actually meditating. So it's just interesting to, to hear that. So when does it come in? Like when are you even entertaining? Could I teach this? Could I share this with others?
Kate: So that was a long, long journey. So Insight Timer, I can't remember when Insight Timer first came about. When was that?
Lou: So it would probably the version where I know when Christopher Plowman bought it, I believe. I think he bought it in like 2015 or 24, sometime around that it did exist just as like a timer. But he bought it and ended up obviously, you know, being what it is today.
Kate: Yeah. So it was a. So I think really it was. I was in this big marketing job for a long, long time and once in set time, I started practicing and it became more and more important to me. And then, you know, it's getting older. Starting to think about doing something that was more meaningful. And the more, I think the more the prac. My practice grew, the more I wanted to share it with other people. And then just came across the idea of training. I think I saw an ad for a Tara Bruck teacher training course on Instagram. I didn't even know it was a thing. And I didn't do the training that she offers with Jack Hornfield. But it put a seed in my mind that, oh, maybe I could do this. And then in 2019 I found an online course in the UK and it just felt right. And I started on a year long program and I think the real turning point was Covid because I was suddenly at home, you know, really with more time, I suppose to practice meditation. I was finishing my training course and I started to kind of really have this pull to put it into practice.
Lou: Yeah. And so is it you get the training? Are you, are you like actually leading anything at that point? Like after the 2019 training, like are you starting to do like little groups or with friends? You know, I know maybe it's Not. It's not. And maybe also paint back to like, what. What are you doing for work for the last 20 years, you know, in this time.
Kate: Yeah. So I've always worked in marketing. I was interested in kind of psychology of the way people think. And marketing was just something I, I was good at. I fell into it and I sort of climbed the ladder working in creative agencies and then for Kaplan in a big, in a big marketing role and managing a big team. But it, and it. As my role progressed and I was managing this very big team, I started to realize that the part that interested me the most was mentoring people, supporting people, making sure they were okay. And then when Covid hit and I had to tell my team of nearly 50, right, we've all got to go home. Everything then became about their wellbeing. And suddenly I felt myself come alive. I want to make sure my people are okay. And it started just this, this kind of change in the way I thought about my work, which was that this is lighting me up and this is where my purpose.
Lou: And what are you, are you sharing mindfulness with those coworkers? Like those, your teammates, like, you know, that care that you want, like the mentoring that you want, like, how does, how does that start becoming more public? Like the mindfulness piece?
Kate: Yeah. So I did a. It was more general wellbeing with my team, but then there was some kind of wellbeing initiatives that another team were putting on and I offered to help and talk about mindfulness on one of them. So that was a big step, even just unveiling that other part of me that was interested in mindfulness. So I talked about the theory of it and how I found it helpful and that's how it really began. And then in the backdrop, I was working with a friend. So that was my first experience of teaching. I taught an eight week course to her and she was amazing and felt very safe working with her. And then I also thought, look, what could I do to get a bit more experience? So I reached out to a few charities and one charity who support unpaid carers in the community said, we'd love that. We have lots of people suffering with stress and overwhelm and we'd love you to do that. And it felt huge at the time. And Lou, I was working with you back then and I just remember that first class talking to you about that fear of how am I going to do a live class with real people in a proper mindfulness teaching role. And they responded so well to it. And I carried on doing that for Two years. That was really my training ground.
Lou: I love that so much. Like creating, creating your own training ground. And I did something a little bit similar. It was kind of through my own thing of just people coming and you're just continuing to get the reps of holding space, of sharing. And so anyone listening to this, like the op, the opportunities are out there. It might take a little bit of reaching out, asking, is there, was it just like a simple email? Like I'd love just the, maybe the nitty gritty of like, was it a simple email to them? Was it a connection? Like how. What was the, you know, pitch like?
Kate: It was really an email. I found lots of charities in my local area and I wrote to them and I gave them a clear offer which was, this is what I can do, I'll do it for free.
Lou: That makes a pitch a lot easier sometimes.
Kate: Yeah, yeah, not indefinitely, but it was a charity, this is how it could help. And I didn't hear back from most of them but then there was one that did, you know, and I had to go through some hoops. It wasn't as easy. I had to get a special, you know, they had to check my credentials and all sorts. It wasn't immediate and I had a little interview. But then it was a bit, it was kind of self fulfilling. I did the first class and then more people came the next time and they're still there. I still drop in now once every couple of months to do a class for them and it's so rewarding. But it felt, I think the thing for me was that I needed a space that felt it was enough out my comfort zone that I felt I was learning something. But it still felt safe and okay. And there was a real tangible sense of giving back which helped to motivate me to be brave enough to do it.
Lou: To get out of your own. It's not about me, it's about this. I mean, that's how in some ways maybe sometimes the energy we also should have, most of the times is like getting out of our own way. It's about this and I'm just giving. And when there's, you know, when we are doing something for free, it can take away like the, oh, you know, this is all just gravy, like they're not expecting, there's no like expectations around. They're paying, you know, this money to receive something. It's like this is all benefit. And so yeah, I can see how that energy in the beginning before we go to like what, what compels someone to Seek a coach and in your case, seeking, you know, us starting what is it or what was it early on. And be curious to hear if it's changed because I know I've been reflecting on this. I just started reading. It's like a, it's like kind of like the 10 year anniversary for me of like doing this in some ways of like quitting my job and pursuing it. And so I've been reading my journal from this time around 10 years and it's fascinating and really actually giving me something I didn't know I needed. Like reconnecting with what I was seeking back then and what I was yearning for, like the purpose, the ability to put myself into a body of work, the ability to also self express and create. And it's like, wow, I was like speaking this into existence in some way and you know, it's. There's like an innocence that when I look back, like wow, I don't even. We forget how far. I forget how far I've even come until like reading my old words like that. So I'm just wondering, as you reflect back, I know Maybe it wasn't 10 years ago, but even in starting to teach in the cares group community, like what was the most fulfilling part of it for you and. And has the fulfillment shifted in the past few years? Like is it still the same feeling or have you found. Yeah. Has the essence of it changed?
Kate: That's a really, really good question. So in the very, very early days, I almost wasn't able to feel the fulfillment because there was so much fear. So I would say the first like even few months, even six months, my gosh, I would have my whole word document full of the whole class broken down and it would be a huge deal. So it was almost the fulfillment was I did it, I got through it and I did it. And then that really has shifted. And I've noticed my teachings, I've relaxed into my teaching. I think obviously everyone in the group is feeling that more and you see them coming back and coming back. It's incredibly rewarding to think that there's something you can share that can help people to feel a little better and to feel a little more connected. And in this group that we created together, so that's been kind of surprisingly rewarding. And I still surprise myself. I saw the carers a couple of months ago and I still pinch myself that that was just an email and an idea and they came together and experienced something new and that's really, really rewarding. As I've gone on to teach more and more. I think it is. It's this sense of spreading this good stuff. It's just this amazing feeling. And I. I've got better and better at not putting pressure on myself to convince everyone that there'll be people that turn up that don't feel it or get it. And I just like to see it as these little light bulbs going up, these little sparks going up in each group. And there may be just two or three in each group, but that's okay. So I do. I do find that it's shifted. There's less high energy attached to each class that I teach and I believe in it more. I think in the early days I wasn't sure it was a thing that people needed. And the more I teach, the more I realize how much it can benefit people.
Lou: So I just pulled up your email in response to one of my newsletters on August 11, 2021. The newsletter was Today is your portal and you say I'm not naturally a very religious person, but truly feel that the stars have aligned in an extraordinary way today. So this is how today has unfolded and it's still only lunchtime in London. I started the day meditating, I guess to one of my meditations on Insight Timer. I remember us chem you were in Kate back then. Like remember you for a few years like meditating to certain things.
Kate: That's crazy.
Lou: And you said I then received a reply back from a local wellness center that they'd love me to start running a meditation class there once a week. I wrote to them is that cares at the time?
Kate: No, it wasn't actually was somewhere else.
Lou: So I wrote to them ages ago as I'm a newly qualified mindfulness teacher and had all but given up hope. I then received an email from a woman asking me to teach mindfulness to her daughter, who is suffering quite a bit with mental health issues. I hadn't heard from her in over two months. That's always an interesting one when we reach out or we think people are out and trusting that things are going to come around when the time happens and you go and then your email pops my inbox talking about the stars aligning. I feel quite overwhelmed, anxious and excited all at once. This really feels like the beginning of my meditation teaching journey more than anything. I just want to thank you for the beautiful path and your teachings have taken me on. And then was that I forget what I wrote, but I'm not going to go with what I wrote back. I wrote back something simple, but then you're I definitely Value guidance from you as I'm struggling quite a bit from imposter syndrome and feel quite scared to take the leap into actual teaching when one of your coaching sessions be the best way for me to discuss this. And then that's kind of where it started. So just.
Kate: Wow.
Lou: I'm sure you haven't read that in that time. So. And just hearing that, I'm curious what comes up for you there.
Kate: That's amazing. That's amazing. And actually, yeah, three, three years ago, a lot has happened since then and that. Yeah, first of all, Kevin, I had forgotten her. So that was why I don't know whether I was trying to kind of privately meditate in case someone at work found out, which is funny. That's amazing. I. Yeah, it was fear. It was just so much fear of taking the next step into teaching for real. And I definitely felt I couldn't do it alone. And I just, I find it really interesting, that journey from listening to your meditations, which obviously there are so many on Insight Timer and just that I kept coming back to yours. They were talking to me in a way that just really, really resonated all about trusting the process, trusting your intuition, trusting the journey. There was a lot around that and. And I felt, I definitely felt like I couldn't do it alone. That was clearly. And again, just like I didn't know Insight Timer was a thing, then suddenly it was, oh, coaching is a thing in this area. You know, I didn't even know that was a possibility. So that was really exciting.
Lou: Yeah. So much to. To say I just had something on my head that I'm losing the train of thought. But the fact. Oh, that's what it is. It's like you're speaking to what I, what I try to, you know, engage with. With people of like, why I'm. Why I see meditation in the artist way of like really trying to also share. Not everyone's going to teach meditation like this, by the way. But. But the fact that it's like by having. For the coaches out there, that's maybe that you don't have a lot of meditations and you're trying to get clients Simply by like 90 second reels on Instagram or pictures. And there's something. Not that I was, not that I was doing like meditations trying to get clients. Those meditations probably were. Some of them probably created before I even did coaching. But the fact of someone that is spending time with you like in their, you know, a sacred time in some ways, maybe it's their morning. The Routine. They're, they're meditating, they're having, they're developing a connection over a long form piece of content. That's just why I believe in like, like that, to focus on, you know, this, this podcast episode will come out in early 2025 or end of 2024. And to think of like, what is a long form way that you have built connection with someone, because I really think that is how someone feels a trust to then come and say, oh, I'm looking for someone on one support, but who do I know? Like, who, who would. Who could be this one on one support? And, you know, obviously it worked out for us to begin that journey.
Kate: It really did. It really did.
Lou: So how are you? How, how did you work with the fear? Like, what was the antidote to the fear? Like, how did, how. I just actually lost a podcast around imposter syndrome and interviewed someone else on fears of teaching meditation. But how, how is working with the fears? How did you navigate that?
Kate: I think a huge part of it, working with you was acknowledging that there will be fear and that it's normal, accepting it. So learning to trust that it's this thing that will happen and seeing it as part of growing. Whereas before I was really resistant to it and it, I was worried that it meant it was the wrong work for me. And that, by the way, that still comes up, as, you know, I still have that. You know, if this feels so big and so terrifying, then is it the right work for me to do so? And I remember in the early days, you describing how with each step, that thing that felt huge, you know, when you look back two years later, will, will feel very small. And that is what's. That's exactly what's happened. When I think of the carers now, it feels soft and sweet and safe. Whereas, you know, a few years ago it was, it was terrifying. So that was a big part of it. Also, obviously my practice. So knowing that absolutely needing to ground before I teach, you know, really working with grounding practices before and after I teach as well, has been transformational for me. And just having that space to reflect when things have gone wrong. Lou so, you know, we've talked about, you know, the moments when either people don't turn up to a class or they might leave halfway through. Just having the courage to keep going when that happens has been a big one.
Lou: Yeah. Not taking it personally.
Kate: No, that's been, I think, also doing this work. I know that I feel stuff very deeply and energetically and also working on that, creating those Boundaries so that you feel that fearless when. When people react in a certain way. So. So, yeah, it's the. Keep going. But I've. Working with you has helped me to stay grounded and keep pushing, pushing through you.
Lou: You spoke to something that's really interesting, this question of, right. If I feel so much fear, maybe is this not the. Is this the right thing? Like, if it feels this uncomfortable, like, there's a part of us that's like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. We don't need to feel this uncomfortable. We had a. We had a nice, you know, solid little role and we could just do our thing and we can get by and we can. All that stuff, like, should we feel this way? And it reminded me of. I'm going to blank on who it was that said this, but some, like, really famous comedian who's like, gotten to like, the top of their traffic or whatnot. And, you know, we're. We're not performers necessarily, but we are being in front of people, right? The public speaking fear is real. But they would say that they would, they would throw up before, like, every, Every performance. Like, it never got easier. But they're so good at it, right? So it's like this weird, weird thing where the things I know for me, in the same vein, and this is probably why some of the things I've talked about have resonated with you, is because the thing, the thing that you want or feel called to, like, not even want, because want makes it sound like we. We decided. But feeling called to is almost like more in the line of that something else is pulling us towards. And for whatever reason, fear just tends to be the, like, the growth aspect of it tends to be what. Where we have to go through. I don't know. I don't know exactly why that is, but it's. It's really fascinating.
Kate: Yeah, it's. It is. It's such a calling. And you have to. You know what it is, what you've really resonated that you have to have such a strong belief that the work you're doing is needed. And you have to have that belief. And I think if you don't have it, you can't push through the fear. I mean, the most you made me think of probably in the last year, the most frightening moment was I have an amazing CEO and mentor, David, and he's the one who gave me the space to give this a go within my company, and lots of big corporates wouldn't do that. And he. He believed in me enough. And, and the idea Took him a while. And he said, you know what? If you're going to be doing a program in our company, you know, at Kaplan, then I want to try it. So imagine that. And he said, but, Kate, do I have to wear, you know, baggy trousers and a headband? It's brilliant. So I was like, david, it's okay. It's fine. You just have to turn up your camera on. And I did. He came. He came to the first hour and to be teaching a practice, closed his eyes. This is someone who's never, you know, hasn't practiced. And to sit teaching him. And he did. He. He was amazing. Took part and really enjoyed it. And, you know, and I just thought, if I can do that, I can do. I can do anything.
Lou: Amazing. Amazing. That's an amazing story. So people listening are like, wait, wait a second. What did she do with her company? She's teaching, like. So this is, like, one of the most compelling things, I think, to just the story of what you were able to do within your company. So paint. Yeah, paint that picture for us.
Kate: Okay, I will. I'll give you a little bit of the back backstory. So, you know, I'm still in my marketing job, but I'm. I'm practicing more and more. I'm teaching on. I had a Friday off. I. Teaching on my Friday, teaching the carers more. I'm qualified now. And there were a couple of moments. I went away for work to Newport, Rhode Island. And after I visited a university, I was. My husband came to meet me when we were on the beach, just walking and talking. And there's something about the sea for me that allows me to dream and think big. And we were just talking. We were in the States, and I don't know what it was, but my husband was like, you know, I really think you could do this. You know, you could make this your work. And we started talking about the seeds of. Of how this work could be more than a voluntary thing, but actually something that, you know, businesses clearly really need and that could be bigger than that. So that's where we. I started thinking. And then. I'm not sure I've even told you this, Lou, but when. While we were away, my daughter got very unwell with real, really bad anxiety when she's 14 years old and she just couldn't go to school. She was too anxious to go to school. And so I actually had to take time off work. And my boss at the time was amazing, and she gave me the space to just take time off work to help my daughter recover and get back into school. And that required me, just because of the way we were working with my daughter, to manage her anxiety, to very gradually to walk her to school and to to wait for half an hour in a local coffee shop while she tried school for 30 minutes. And then she tried it for an hour and it gradually increased. And the reason I'm telling you this story is because in the time I was waiting for her to bravely walk into school with all these feelings of panic, I was sitting in a little coffee shop in quite a depressing part of London, and I had time to think. And I knew I couldn't go back into this marketing role because I was overwhelmed. And also it had just become clear that I needed to do this work. And so I started writing a proposal for my business, Kaplan. It just came to me in this little dingy coffee shop and I thought, you know what? We're going through struggles. You know, I think you're brave sometimes when things are tough. And so I started writing a pitch. I just thought, I'm just going to pitch this idea, which is that we're a big education group. Lots and lots of young people are struggling with anxiety, like my daughter, who's a lot younger. And I have these tools, I have these skills. I can teach young people to regulate their emotions and deal with stress. And I'm passionate about it. And I dug out lots of information about businesses that are already using mindfulness. As you know, there are so many, you know, it's not like some brand new thing. And I did a whole deck. And cut a long story short, I sent it to my mentor and CEO, David first, and he immediately loved it. And then he shared it with another colleague and it grew. And I'll never forget this meeting where David and Andrew, the two kind of very senior people, said, but this is so obvious. Why haven't we done this before? So that's really how it began about 18 months ago. And since then I've been. They've allowed me to design my own program and pilot it with lots of our students and staff.
Lou: Amazing. I did not know the piece about your daughter and that where this was actually birth of in that shop. And in some ways being the medicine that your daughter could have used at the time. And you're in a, what a unique position. Yes. I always tell people to start doing it where you're at. If you're at a company, start bringing meditation, start doing a workshop for the people in the company. But for you, you're in a unique position. You're in an education company that actually their business is education and programs for students. So the opportunity that you are uniquely equipped for to bring this into such like an international level is incredible. And so yes, you pitch. Do you have any, let's pause here. Do you have any feedback for anyone who is at a company that maybe wants to pitch their company on something similar? Whether the company might not do what you know, the education piece outwardly. But I'm just wondering if you know, being at your company for so long and then obviously doing this, like if there's anything that people or people that want to pitch a company on the outside should kind of should know or think about. Do you have any insight around that?
Kate: Sure. And I really thought about this long and hard and by the way, I don't want it. It sounded really easy. It wasn't. So I just wanted. The first thing I don't want to say is there were lots of doors that closed or people that sat across from me with their arms crossed or maybe thought it was a bit weird. So be prepared that you won't convince everyone. But what I did was make sure that I built in data science. Lots of examples of how these techniques can help people. If we're talking about business and pitching to companies can help people to not only feel better but also perform better and be more likely to stick around. Because companies do not want their staff leaving because they're feeling stressed. They just want to stay in bed under a duvet. They want them to stick around. So I use lots of examples of companies that are using this successfully and there are some really strong examples, SAP and hsbc. And I dug out case studies so that it wasn't just me talking about my passion. I think that's the key. It's not a passion project. This is science backed. You know, these techniques work, companies are using them and you don't want to miss out and they're really accessible. So I would, I would do that really to help open doors. And I came at it from a point of performance more than well being. When I started pitching.
Lou: Amazing. I thought you were going to say, I guess performance sticking around longer does equate to the bottom line. Right. Companies are always looking like if this can make us money, it's worth the investment. Right. It's easy if you could show this and they're going to have more revenue which in some way is just showing the. I'm sure the lack of turnover is, you know, there's some cost that they know of. If we turn some you know, when someone leaves and quits and the whole. The cost of actually acquiring or hiring someone is a certain, I'm sure, number for each company. So, yeah, what I'm hearing from you is really corporate culture. Would that be the right word to use? Like, I'm just thinking, if someone wanted to pitch this, are they supporting or transforming corporate culture, corporate performance, corporate wellbeing? I know you're leaning more in the performance realm, but is there a culture piece to this?
Kate: Yeah, absolutely. And what I haven't touched on is that piece around connection, compassion and connection. And a big part of what I talk about is it isn't just. It's not just mindfulness. It's how you behave, how you treat your staff and how you kind of behave towards each other and how that can impact, create a more compassionate culture and environment. So, yes, I think culture is a piece that said it's quite woolly. So if you're expecting someone to sign a check, we need.
Lou: We need an English translation here. Woolly.
Kate: Woolly. Oh, I love. I love it when Lou asks me to translate for him. We should have a little book of all the ones. Vague. Vague.
Lou: That's amazing. I love that. That's a bit woolly. I'm going to remind that my sister's in London and she's coming home on Saturday. So, like, surprise.
Kate: That's brilliant. That's really good. So it does need. I think the examples help. I think performance has more impact than culture because culture feels like a bit of a luxury to some companies. One example that really resonated with people was the military. The U.S. military. And whatever you might feel about the importance or not the US Military, the fact that they've embraced mindfulness techniques. And there was an amazing article in the New York Times that I used in my pitch, which was about mindfulness doesn't make our people soft, it makes them on point. And pieces like that, I think really helped people that might think this is a bit weird. Soft hippie, really sit up and listen.
Lou: Totally. It's like beyond losing. They're going to lose their edge. It's actually. No, this is the edge. Like, this is the. This is the way to be fully connected and in flow and in your. In your zone. Yeah, you're. You're also making me realize in some ways why, for me, pitching mindfulness in schools or, you know, to teachers and stuff, I was just so, like, it's my own shadow. I'm recognizing this as like a shadow that I need to, like, do some work around of my My just disinterest in like talking about the science and talking about the facts and talking about that piece of it for whatever reason, it's just like, I just, to me it's like, no, just feel it, like experience it and it's great. Like, and I realize that there's people that do it so much better and they're so much more interested in the studies around it. But this is my own thing. This is my own thing that I'm grappling with. I'm like, why am I such a resistance to it?
Kate: No, but I would say you're right, that helped me get in the door. But if you actually want to train those senior execs and really get them on side, they have to experience it. And that's when I notice the real light bulbs for a few people.
Lou: So take us. You get this opportunity, like dream opportunity, pilot program. I know, you know, in working with you since then, seeing like you trying everything, right? Just like doing a lot of different things, like what how did you, or how are you still connecting to what the main focus? Just how did it, how did it go? Like, how did it go to pilot this and where is it at now?
Kate: Yeah, so, yeah, it's been a year. I've done a lot because I had to really prove, you know, it's not like I have endless years and space to prove this. So I've, you know, I wrote a program, I wrote some slides, six weeks. So that was a big piece of work. I set up zoom links and I, you know, I'm lucky I'm within a company and I just sent out messages first to staff and the signups were very easy. There was a lot of interest quickly and I did the same for students. So I was trying it out with younger groups and also our staff and it, you know, it has generally been both terrifying and exhilarating. Not everyone's completed the course, but those who have, have given amazing feedback. And I do want to take a moment to say that very early on I realized I need a sidekick. You know, I have you in the background for support. But actually this was a big, big step out of my comfort zone to go from teaching teeny groups to teaching for a well known corporate. So I, you know, the universe aligned. And this wonderful woman Michelle, who's our office manager, told me she was really interested in mindfulness. And I just, I just said, would you help me? And she jumped at it. And I would say the reason, I would say to anyone who's looking to take a big step to teach a big group, having someone there, you know, she was there on the zoom, helping with the tech, helping with the breakout room, smiling at me when things felt wobbly. I cannot tell you how that changed things for me, having someone, you know, she'd give me honest feedback, just bouncing ideas off so that I would really recommend. It was amazing. And we've delivered lots of programs together now. And the more I've taught, the more feedback I've got, the more our confidence has grown. And I would say that with each class, I'm learning so much more. And it's different every time. I think what I'm learning, Lou, is that you never nail it. You're never going to have this in the bag because it's people. And every class, every group is different. What's shifted for me, probably only in the last month or so, is that I'm said this to you. I think recently that I now feel like I am a teacher, I am a trainer, whatever I want to call myself. Whereas I really felt like I was playing at it kind of this whole year, that I shouldn't be doing it, and who am I to be doing this? And I just started feeling like, yeah, I can do this. I've still got loads to learn, but I am doing it.
Lou: What was that shift?
Kate: Just talking to enough people who experienced the practices and felt a little better. And that's it, really?
Lou: Yeah. Sometimes the validation is nice. Sometimes the validation helps us, and I.
Kate: Don'T want it to. And I suppose another piece, actually a really good piece, is that there was a program I did recently where the participants were told they had to do the course, which is never a good start. And it was really tough. And I could tell a few of them really didn't enjoy it. And that was also part of being a teacher, which is. Yeah, they're not. They're not enjoying it. It's not working. It's okay.
Lou: It's not for them. Right. And you're not the person for them either. Maybe their introduction needs to be from someone else. And it's like just honoring that. Okay. We need to be. We're all going to have the people that resonate for us and can be our introduction or can be our later on. You know, maybe they come back, right? They're like, oh, that was that thing that that woman was doing. Right. And I'm going to come back to it later on. How I know. Getting clearer on, like a niche or the people, the people that you really like serving. I know you've worked with such A variety of groups and stuff. Like, how has that journey been in really getting clear on, oh, no, this is who it's for. And where is that at now?
Kate: Yeah. And this has been a real journey that, you know, working in Merakian with you has been complicated because I really haven't been sure. It's like, this could be for anyone. So why do I need to define my audience? But actually, over time, I have noticed that my energy is at its highest when I'm teaching young people. So when I'm teaching students, particularly international students, there's just something that feels totally natural. I don't know why or what that is. I feel really relaxed and playful, and that feels like my sweet spot. Equally. I can absolutely teach the older people and the staff, but I don't know whether that is the right way to do it, Lou. But I have noticed that there's just something effortless when I'm teaching younger people. And I feel like I'm most authentically me when I do that.
Lou: I think it's focusing on. And for anyone listening, it's like, what is that for you? What is the place that brings energy, that really, like, brings you alive? You know, trying to just steer the ship towards that and then being open to the other opportunities. Like, being open to, oh, the staff wants to do something, and understanding, like, okay, it serves the whole. But if you just. If you just know that, like, your North Star, even if you sway from it here and there, but of coming back to it, it can just help inform decisions. It can help inform your vision or how you're thinking about what's coming up in the next year or so. And so I know, Kate, I know you have to share that. Bringing this in to go from she's marketing. We call her Marketing Kate. Marketing Kate. To having this pitch, developing this business plan in a coffee shop while you're caring for your daughter and then to be okay 18 months afterwards. And recently you were awarded something. So I'd love for you to speak. Just speak that out, just to make you a little bit more uncomfortable, because.
Kate: Thanks, Lou.
Lou: Yeah. Because Kate's a proper British woman that doesn't celebrate. Doesn't celebrate a lot.
Kate: It's definitely not something we do here, but I will. You've given me permission, so, yes, I'll give it a go. So, yes, one of our senior leaders has been kind of following my work, and she definitely wasn't someone early on who was on board. She celebrated the concept, but said it wasn't a priority. But she has come on the journey with me and seen the impact and seen the feedback. And she said, you know what, Kate? This is really innovative in higher education in our area and I think we should enter it for an award, for a wellbeing award. And instinctively I felt imposter syndrome in me. It's way too soon, at least another year. But actually the data was pretty strong. We had some good feedback and yeah, we submitted it and I went along to the award ceremony in London, this beautiful place right near Trafalgar Square. And I was with Michelle, who'd never been to anything like that. And we were just like giggly girls because we never thought we'd win. And they did indeed call our name. And it's the sweetest thing, the picture of us holding the award, we're holding hands, which kind of says it all. I think it was both through friendship and terror and fear of having to go up there. But yeah, it definitely shows that, yeah, you can never have a dream that's too big because I still can't really believe it.
Lou: What did it feel like when they called your name?
Kate: Not real. I mean, not real. Froze for a moment. But I think that's helped me to see that. Yeah, we did some good work. We did some good work and there's lots more work to be done. But yeah, it was an amazing feeling.
Lou: What is the work to be done? What's next now in this path?
Kate: So really I always want to come back to the impact and the why, and that's what you've helped me with so much, just grounding my work in the why. Why am I doing this? Why am I going through this fear and this sense of overwhelm and it's the impact. So for me, it is about widening the impact of the program of these mindfulness techniques and helping more people to heal and feel better. So the next step is starting to talk to people outside of Kaplan, maybe universities, maybe schools, and just to do more work and to share it with more people, you know, more people like me who were struggling as young 20 somethings. That's the, that's the vision.
Lou: Well, this was a pilot, so is, I mean, has Kaplan, like said, like, okay, yes, we're doing this like full out. Is that, has that been confirmed?
Kate: We're pretty much there, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Lou: And when you say like expand out to universities, is that through Kaplan or is this. I know, because you had recent opportunity with a school that's kind of on your own. Like, are you, do you see something on your own too, like stepping out.
Kate: For now, it's all with Kaplan. I'm working for Kaplan, so everything is through them, but who knows where that might reach? I think schools could be a really exciting place. You know, I saw what my daughter went through. You know, she now finds just breathing kind of. She just knows how to breathe when she needs to breathe. Gosh, it would be wonderful to give that to so many more kids before they desperately need it. So I think that would be a big place that I'd like to venture into.
Lou: So recently, Kate has a new nickname that I've learned as the Manifesting Queen.
Kate: Oh, yes.
Lou: I reached out to her about being on this podcast, and to my surprise, she said that she had made this being on this podcast a goal for two years. Two years.
Kate: 26.
Lou: 2026. Wow. And so she wrote something down and I guess I felt it in the ether in some ways. And she's manifested that already in 2024. So, Kate, what else is on the vision? The goals for the next year or two years?
Kate: Okay, so to teach more, to develop more of my teachings, more of my practices in a. More to be more creative, to grow my insight Timer following, just to teach more and more people, to grow a community of mindfulness practitioners. That's the. That's the dream. To keep doing more of what I'm doing, to build my confidence. I still have a lot of fear, so to keep working with that. I'm not going to pretend it's. It's all sorted to keep working with you, Lou, and to become, I think finally to become. To meet more and more people in this amazing community. That's why I love listening to the podcast. It's such an amazing group of people. I still feel like I'm just kind of touching the surface. So that would be a big goal for me too.
Lou: You're doing it. You're a shining example of. I've taken this passion and I figured out a way to make it. To make it work in my own way. And obviously people listening, you know their story is going to be different, but really wanting. Yeah, really wanting to have you on as that example. I mean, that's. That is everyone's example that I have on. It's not like you're different or, you know, like by any means. Like, it's just like it's your. Your. Yeah, you're just a really shining example of. Of just getting to have like a front row seat to it. That's. That was. The fun part is like, I hadn't had a front row seat to some of the other people audit.
Kate: Yeah.
Lou: So it's been really, really amazing.
Kate: Well, Lou, thank you. And I'm. I'm not just saying this because I'm on your podcast, but I couldn't have climbed the mountain of fear without you. That really is the case. I can't believe it's only been three years since that email. But, yeah. So a huge thank you, of course.
Lou: Do you have any other. Any insight or feedback or thoughts for someone that might be listening to this show right now? Anything that you can send through the webs?
Kate: Just. Just if you believe in it, keep going. I had a poster I designed back just when I was reaching out to Lou, and I put it on a tree, and it went through storms and rain and the ink ran, and I didn't get one inquiry from that poster. And if I'd given up, then none of this would have happened. So if you believe it, just keep going. Because a door will open at the right moment.
Lou: Amen. Beautiful. Thank you so much. Kate. Kate is there. Where do you want to send people to. To check out to connect with you and.
Kate: Sure, yeah. Well, my. My website, mishkam.mindfulness.com they can look at. But also I have a tiny little presence on Insight Timer. But do feel free to listen to some of my practices there. I'd love you to join me. I'm also on Instagram Michigan Mindfulness, too.
Lou: Yeah, Kate's got some great Instagram posts, so definitely go check her out. And some great meditations. So give her a follow. Send some love. Kate, thank you so much for spending the time.
Kate: Oh, it's been the best. Thanks, Lou.
Lou: All right, take care, friends.
Kate: Take care.