A Surrender Experiment: Leaping, Failing, & Finding Your Dharma w/ Karine Meller
If you're on the path of bringing your Soul's work to the world, Karine's story is a must listen! Her journey from quiting western medicine, to being a prep chef, to finding Ayurveda and now bridging east/west medicine is mind-blowing. The work she is doing is cutting edge, and I hope everyone takes something away from this beautiful soul.
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Podcast Transcript
Lou: Hello there. Dear listeners, welcome to the Art and Business of Meditation podcast. This is going to be a fun guest that I have for you today. I want to welcome Karini Miller. She is an anesthesiologist. Whoa. Anesthesiologist. Ayurvedic physician, and chief of the anesthetic department at the Vida Nova Hospital in Brazil. And you might be like, lou, why are you having an anesthesiologist on this is the Art and Business of Meditation podcast. What is going on? And I wanted to have Karini on. She's someone that I've worked with for a few years, probably since 2021, and I've gotten an upfront seat to her journey and the miracle of it, the synchronicity of it, the beauty of it, the challenge of it. And I, you know, in this series of wanting to just share more stories of people that I know and I've witnessed, I thought it'd be awesome to have Karini come on because I know some of you might have read the book the Surrender Experiment by Michael Singer, and I think Karini's life is a testament. It almost reads like that book in some ways. And the way that she's been able to go for her dreams, take big chances, extreme chances, risks, fail at those risks, but not really fail because she found the gold from what she needed to find and then to come and bring her gifts in her own unique way. You hear me talk all the time about finding your unique gift, gifts, finding the way that. That you're here to serve. And Karini is a shining example of finding, bridging this western medical background with this Eastern healing and wellness and just her own spiritual journey. So that's why I wanted to have Karini on. And so, Karini, that's probably the longest intro I've given in some ways, but welcome to the show.
Karine: I'm so honored to be here. I really hope that my story inspires. If it just inspires half a person, I will already be happy.
Lou: I'm sure it'll be inspiring to many more, to all probably who listen and really receive. Karine, maybe we start in a simple way. I know that how you found me through Insight Timer, and you were just using Insight Timer as a source for you. And so I know we could. We could spend probably five hours telling, like the big. The big long story. But I think what's important, I'd love to hear maybe an abridged version of your meditating on Insight Timer to, you know, you live in and you're from Brazil and You take a leap to. You're also a chef. I don't think we put this on the bio, but you're also a fantastic chef. And, you know, not to. I'm gonna let you tell your story, but I'll. I'll pepper in things to kind of keep us on track. Here is. Is you, you know, through kind of doing meditations or courses of your own spiritual journey, you're like, okay, chefing is something that I love and wanting to bring that. And is it something that you can do for a living? Because maybe at. I don't know, at the time, if you were burnt out by the medicine or the Western background world, and then you took a big movement and leaped from Brazil to Portugal to work at this restaurant, which was just a lot of. A lot of doors closing in your face, it seemed like. So just in your own words, again, I'm not here to just tell your story, but in your own words, you know, take us through. Where were you at in your life at that point? And just like a little bit of that. That huge decision to go for it.
Karine: Okay, well, about insight Timer, I think this is really important because it was. It helps me so much. I. I'm on. I use it as a tool from today, and I got to know your work through this insight Timer. So I'm really grateful for. For what it brought to me. I think it was around 2:20, 19, I. I had a really big burnout with. With my work. Some people may fantasize a physician's life, like, oh, she or he has an awesome job. They made a lot of money and stuff. But what people don't see the behind the scenes is the amount of hours that we spent in. In my case, as an anesthesiologist, inside a surgery room, away with. Away from my family, away from my friends, away from the. Because in a surgery room, we don't even know if it's day or if it's night. And if it weren't for a clock on the door or the door or our cell phones, we wouldn't even know what time it is. It's like we're confined in this cabin. It's like a metal cabin. And we just work, work, work. And I was just so tired of that. And I remember. Or my daughter was doing some work at school around professions. And one night I was tired. I came home after everybody had dinner, and she was telling me about this. This homework that she had done. And she told me, mom, I don't know what I want to be when I Grow up. But I know what I don't want to be. And I looked at her. Oh, you, you know what you don't want to be? I don't want to be a doctor. I will never be a phys Lou that stroke me now I'm laughing about it. But at the time, because I was already so tired and stressed out with work and I'm going to tell you it was not only the amount of hours, but I had to, I had to lead with lots of surgeons because the work in the surgery room is with. It's a teamwork. Right. But the two principal figures is the anesthesiologist and the chief surgeon. And at that time I was working with lots of surgeons that I wasn't resonating anymore, like with lots of things. So the, the, the ambience. I'm a little bit sorry about my English. Sometimes I don't find the word. But it wasn't a nice place to be in. We would be fighting or not agreeing on many things at that time. But anyway, I heard this from my daughter and this was something that I will never forget because it was the mil stone that I had to make sure that I had to do something different with my life. I was not happy at all. And hearing this from her gave me like a little key. Like, go on, open that door now. I gave, I. I got the key and I was in a mess for some time. It was along a few months from that that I decided that a career change was what I needed. Wow. Think about this. I was like, I'm. This was 2019, I'm 49 years old. So this was about my 45th year. I don't know. I didn't do the math right now, but I, I think it was around there and like career shift at 45 years with my, with my whole life, really what people would see was a fabulous life. I had all. I worked in a good. Only in the best private hospitals of my city. I earned a lot of money and I was so unhappy and so stressed and, and so I was scared. But I, I decided that I was going to do a career shift. So at that time, this was a time when I looked for insight timer because a friend had told me, karini, maybe meditation will help you. And I was so desperate for anything that could help me, like find my place. Strolling and oh, this application helps. Okay. So I got that in like randomly got on inside timer and started listening to lots of guided meditations. That was what I thought was meditating at that time. That's another long story that we can talk about someday.
Lou: That's actually a great, that'll be a great cop podcast episode. I know what you're talking about. Anyway, continue.
Karine: Yeah. So I started meditating and during my meditations, I, I, I decided that cooking, yes. Was a real passion that I have. I always love to cook. And I thought, great, I'm not going to be, I'm, I will choose to go to not be a physician anymore and go into cooking. But as I am such a scholar person, I don't know if this is how you say, because I, I need, I need certificates, I need courses. I like to do the things just as they, they have to be done. I got into culinary school. I wr into culinary school. That was two years that I was like, continued working all this as an anesthesiologist, as I was used to, and studying for culinary school. That was when, that was really hard times because the, when, when it got time to the practical electives, is that what you call them to do the practical parts. I was like, if I wasn't in the hospital at night, I would be in a restaurant working, cutting onions, cutting, washing dishes, washing the floor. I would do anything that would, they would give me. And during this time, a friend at the time that was moving to Portugal discovered that I was doing this. And she proposed to me. Let's open our own restaurant in Portugal. I'm going first. She went a year before me and she said, I'll wait for you, and I will. She had more money to invest. Like we had an agreement that she would do the financial investment and I would come in with most of the work and we were going to open a vegetarian cafe. We're a really small place. But then I thought, okay, this is the universe saying yes to me. At this time, I was, I started reading the Surrender Experience and it all came together, you know. And then I thought, this is my surrender experience. Oh, poor fool. What I was. And I said yes to this. I said yes to her. My husband, I, I love him so much. I don't know how he puts up with so many things that I invent. But I had a nice talk with him and then we decided, yes, Karini, let's go do this. So we did a whole planning of me really, really letting go of everything that I had here in Brazil. My profession, my, even my lots of things that I had in the house. We had to sell them because I, we, I would need this money to help me there in Portugal. And I had to, I have two Dogs, big dogs. I even brought them with me. So the. The whole dog. Traveling with dogs on a plane is one of the. Another big experience that I went through and, and remember that. But I always. I was thinking, okay, I'm going to jump. I'm going to take that leap. You know, I'm going to do it. I'm going to. I was so happy and meditating and listening to lots of. Of things on Spotify and lots of people that helped me build up the courage. You know, I was shockingly afraid. But I went either. I went like, I put up the courage and just went there. So my husband, he decided to stay in Brazil for a while because he said, if things don't work, then I'll be here to support you. And if they work, like we were gonna give one year or two years, and then I'll. I'll go after that. So everything was planned. And so I went. I went to Portugal to open a restaurant, and I thought, oh, now I'm gonna be happy and fulfilled. I found my dharma. I. My. The reason why I came to this planet to be it was to cook, to make people happy through food, through healthy food, right? So. But I got there, and my friend, like, a few weeks after I got there, my friend, she changed her mind. She thought that, oh, maybe it's not a good idea. I don't know if I want to. It was in the middle of the COVID pandemic too. It was not really not a good idea either to travel to the other side of the ocean and much less a time to open a restaurant where everything was closed. Everything was closed at that time. So then I realized, okay, I was not in my surrender experiment yet. I think I'm going to go through it now. At that moment, at that down moment, and at that time, I thought we were doing one on one coaching sessions. I remember. So I still have that vision of my room, of the computer where we would talk to each other. And I, like, I would. I remember, I say, I. I took the jump, but there's nothing catching me. I'm still falling, so. Oh, my God, it was so hard. So hard. So at that moment, I saw myself with no profession, no money, with my daughter and my dogs in another country. Okay, it was Portugal. The language helped a lot. I. I didn't have any problems with that, but I felt lost. Lost. Like, I felt like I. I got to the bottom of my nothingness. I don't even know if this is a word, but it's nothingness. I just. They didn't have anything. And so that was, I think, looking back now, that that was when my surrender experiment really began because I was not planning anything. Nothing was in my control anymore. I was in another country. This person decided to not go on with our plans. And me, Karini, who loves to plan everything, had to watch all my plans crumble and fall on the floor just before my eyes. So I think that was the, the bottom point of all that's been going on, and it was really hard. I don't know if you want me to stop talking a little bit because.
Lou: There'S so much stuff. I'll just, I'll just, I'll just reflect back on it and then we'll continue the story. Because it's like literally an edge of your seat type of story because there's so many. Why I wanted to have you on. There's just so many beautiful points to this story. Ways that I can think of in my own journey of really, like, taking the biggest leap for me, which was burning a lot of bridges, to quit a job and really go into this new world and to think that it was going to happen, you know, yesterday or this was going to happen, like right away and everything was going to work out like I had said. Yes, I had taken the leap and to have the, the struggle and the challenge be what it was. Also reason why I have this podcast is because of how it was a challenge and how it took years from that point to finally, like, fully manifest. It's still manifesting. But for you to take such a big risk, like what, you know, moving across an ocean, moving thousands of miles away, to say yes, to say, hey, universe, hey, God, hey. I'm saying yes to doing something that I care about and I love and put my love into and, and to, to find that all just fall apart and because then many people, you know, might, you know, there. People can become really cynical or soured. Which is why, you know, as I've gotten a little bit more mature, I'm still, you know, still maturing, but a little bit more mature in this journey, you know, in the past, maybe my stuff is like, just do it. Just take the leap. Just go for it. Just, you know, just. You'll be supported. And, and you know, I, I always, I try to preface now like, you know, when, you know, you know, yes, there's truth in that and yes, you know, to, to, to, to, to honor, you know, you have to honor your own truth. This, this whole journey is about attuning to our own truth. And it's Going to look different than mine. It's going to look different than yours. And, you know, trusting that, trusting in that next step, even when it doesn't go our way, what could often happen, you know, here's an alternative. What I could see your path, Craney, which is why I'm so amazed at how where you ended up is that an alternative path is I failed. All this stuff was baloney. This stuff was not real. Like, I bought the Kool Aid. I should have just stayed home. And I. And maybe there were some of that feelings at some point, like, I'm going to go back. I'm going to go back and I'm never going to open inside timer again. I'm never going to listen to anything again. I'm going to shut out this, you know, shut out this idea of a Dharma. I know that's more relevant to you, you know, with where your path took you. But I'm going to shut out the idea of a dharma or I can do something that I love and it fulfills me and I'm not burnt out and I'm going to go back to what I know. And so again, you might have had some of that show up in that process, but I remember, you know, and you, you took the leap and you know, US Currency and Brazil currency is not the same, but you took the leap of working with me coaching, which you still do working with me coaching during this time too. So there is like this. Not that as any coaches listening, like, you can never feel responsibility for your clients because that's, that's not a good energy. It's not your responsibility. You have to have, you have to clear. I'm sure you can understand as a physician, right. You have to be some like separation. But there was, you know, like, you know, the sense of, I know how much that you're, you're putting into this and in every, every way, you know, mentally, spiritually, financially, emotionally. And to see. Yeah. To witness the challenges of it. I know there was probably there was, you know, more doors closed and then to, to. I feel like I forget exactly when I know Ayurveda, you know, came obviously came in I think from, from being in Portugal. I forget, you know, our. Where our communication left off and came back. But I'd be. Yeah, I guess all that to say like, I hope people listening that have taken leaps, that maybe things haven't come to fruition or have had doors closed or maybe you've gotten cynical or soured of like, hey, is this any. Going to work to, to, to to listen closely. Keep listening to this story. So, yeah, where do. So you hit the lowest of lows. There's no ground. What next?
Karine: Okay, I remember just before. A little bit before we go on, I remember a phrase, Lou, I don't know who is. Who's it. Whose phrase is it? Maybe you will remember. But it's like the universe's plans are so much bigger than our plans for ourselves. And sometimes we are in the midst of such suffering that we can't see that. My plans didn't go right. But that's because the universe, God called what you need to. Has other plans for our journey. And so it's how. It's important to keep in touch with your intuition, your. Your feelings, your. Do soul work. I think that's the key word, you know, Keep in touch with your soul. Your soul work. This is the most important thing.
Lou: How do you do that just to, like. What's your way of, like, keeping in touch?
Karine: My way was meditation. Was, was and was not like, I'm going to meditate to, To. To not think about anything. No, I invited all those feelings inside my meditation, like, and I'm a chef, right? I would invite. I would cook for my feelings. I rem. I. I made myself some meditations where I would have. Okay, I'm. I'm inviting anger today. I'm going to cook for my anger, and we're going to talk on a table, we're going to have some nice wine, and we're going to. We're going to see where this goes. So I, I think for me, it was the. The meditation was the most important thing. And I reached out for people who I thought that were my tribe at that moment. Like, we are never alone. We are not alone. And obviously today we have Internet, which helps a lot because we can still be close to one another. But at that time, I had one, Only one person who I could go to with all this suffering that was a yoga teacher at that time. Because as soon as I got there, I. I saw there was a little yoga studio near my house. So I, I went and I got myself written up for her classes. And Vera is her name. I hope she sees this. I think she will, because. Oh, my God. God. She was a messenger, an angel from God. For me, at that moment, I. I remember I would go to her yoga classes and I would just wait for the Shavasana. I was like, oh, I need this. I would wait for. For anybody who doesn't know yoga. The last part of the class in her style was a Shavasana, where we lay down and we just, it was a surrender moment of yoga, right? And I would always cry like crazy in the Shavasana. It was like I was waiting to do it. Just for me be to be able to cry a lot and put out all the things that I needed. And Veda, she was, she became a real close friend. We would talk a lot and she was trying to help me in any way that she could for me to stay there. So she had a few friends who hired me to work in, in a restaurant, in a four star hotel restaurant in the front of one of the beaches I lived at in, in Algarve, which is the south part of Portugal. They have such beautiful beaches there. You look, I was in paradise. If you look at it, I was living in paradise and the most miserable way that I could be. But anyway, so she helped me working. I got to, to work a little bit. I did some working in these restaurants. I didn't even tell the owners that I was a physician because I thought they wouldn't hire me because they would think that I was crazy person. Why is the physician ran away? They were. I, I got me a little paranoiac at that time too. Like, what is a physician wanting to work in a restaurant? She may be crazy. I'm not gonna hire her at all. So I simply didn't say that. I said no. I, I was a cook. I had, I had the certificate, right? And they would hire me and I would seek. I, I felt a little bit like, you know, there was a program that was Undercover Boss, maybe the name. I felt a little bit like that because I was a physician peeling onions in a restaurant. Nobody knew, nobody knew there that I was a physician. They looked at me, oh, poor Brazilian girl. She came here in the middle of COVID Let's give her a job so she'll have something to do. And I remember one day, one of them had had symptoms that were, were for me hypnotizing an asthma attack. She already had history of asthma, and, and so, and obviously I, I, she was really in a bad situation. I just dropped everything that I was doing in that kitchen and I went and I treated her as, as a patient. And everybody was like, what are you doing, Karini? What are you doing? We're gonna call a physician. We're gonna call an ambulance. And I'm like, oh, okay, I'm a physician. I'm gonna just help her until the ambulance. And everyone was like, what?
Lou: Oh my gosh.
Karine: So this was a funny story. It was my last Day at the restaurant because the manager thought. He really thought that was not my place. He got a little bit scared of what happened. And so I went home with no job again. And, And. And then Ayurveda. Sorry, you know, that I talk too much.
Lou: This is a great story. No, that was an amazing story. Absolutely. I'm in for the ride, Karini. Stay with it.
Karine: Okay. So I went to Vera in the next yoga class, and I told her what happened. And she was like, oh, Karini, what I'm gonna do with you? How am I gonna help you? And there was I again in Shavasana at the end of crying my soul out, feeling that I had nothing. I had nothing. I couldn't even work as a. As a cook, like. And at this, this is the special moment at the end of the class, I was with my eyes closed and I, I. She. Obviously she had to bend down to talk to me because I felt her voice so near my ear. I can hear it at this moment. She just whispered the word Karini. No, it's a sentence, really. I think you may. Like, she just said that and went away. And I just. I stopped crying because then my. My crazy mind goes. I had never heard about it, but okay. We ended the class and I thanked her and I told her. I'm gonna look up to what you said because I have. What is that? You're ready. Like, it's, it's, it's. It's. Is it something that I can eat? Is. Is it a dish? Or is it. I didn't know anything about it. So I went home and Lou. I started doing research. And I. Each thing that I read or each video that I saw just hit me like. Like, how do you say? An arrow. An arrow inside my soul. Like this Karini. This Karini. Ayurveda. Ayurveda. It hit me and like. And. And then. Oh, I did a lot. Dying at that time, I. I cried, cried, cried. Because I thought, okay, maybe I can make peace with my profession as a physician, but not working as an anesthesiologist, that's another poor thing. I thought that I would never be going back to a surgical room in my life. But I was up to the idea of working with internal medicine as a. As a clinical physician, but with Ayurveda as my. As my purpose. So immediately I got myself written up into an informal classes because, well, that's another big thing of how Ayurveda is taught in this side of the. Of the planet. It's very different idea. And the profession of an Ayurvedic physician only exists in India and some little other countries. What we in this side of the planet call an Ayurvedic therapist is so plural, but it does not have to do with what an Ayurvedic physician is. I did not know that at the time. I just wanted to learn the most that I can. And I was already booked to come back to Brazil, so this, But I came back to Brazil without a dime in my pocket, but with a little seed called Ayurveda in my suitcase. So that's where, where I, where I actually, I didn't look for Ayurveda. I always say to the, to my teachers that Ayurveda found me. He Ayurveda universe prepared, was preparing me even through culinary school, because then I realized that for Ayurveda, our, our pharmacy is our kitchen. So I was, I was like, oh, my God, I can use what I know as a physician and what I know to do in the kitchen as a cook and, and, and work these two things together. Ayurveda does this in such a divine, beautiful way. It's impossible for me not to feel passionate. I, I, I, I, I can see my eyes shiny through this screen.
Lou: So I want to. There's an image that's coming to mind because sometimes it's fun to, you know, in some, you know, there's. People talk about this journey as like a game, right? You're like, you know, leveling up or you're, you know, that, that you're, you're, you know, find. You got to, you know, go to the next level when you're ready to go to the next level, and the universe will give you, like, you know, you know, challenges and the same thing over and over again. And then you're gonna go to whatever the next level is, but the, the image is not coming in a game like that for you. But almost like, I don't know if you've even in a movie where they're, they're finding like, a hidden treasure and like, they need all the pieces, like, to like, like put into the stone so that it just does its job and like, opens up and like, the treasure is there or something. And it was almost like you were finding your pieces. It's like you had, you didn't realize you had found it. You didn't realize you had found the first piece in being an anesthesiologist. Like, that was the first piece that was just there. Then you find, okay, it's cooking. Oh, that's it. Right. You're thinking that's the only thing that ends up becoming almost the second piece, right? Going to culinary school, building that skill set. And then it wasn't until, and this is, you know, it's, it's cliche in some ways, but cliches need to be repeated because they're important, right? The silver lining, the, the, the, the seed of opportunity and the failure that might be a scene. It's like looking for what is that? What is really you came here for. And it was the Ayurveda, which, from witnessing you, and it's very clear, it's became the third unlock, like the third thing that once that got put into the, the, the stone, it was like.
Karine: And then like, there's more, there's one.
Lou: More, and there's one more. What's the fourth one?
Karine: Was because I thought that I would come back. I had one certainty in my heart was that I will, I would not go back to the life that I had lived before all this. You know, that was the thing that you talked about. People going through the, some kind of experience and hitting the nose and, and all the things that you programmed not working out and, and like, okay, I give up. I'm gonna go back to my safe life, the one I know this did. I, I, I, it passed my mind sometimes. But the other side that was saying, I will never ever go back to that life that I had before was so much potent, so much with so much more force inside of me. So I came back to Brazil thinking, okay, I'm gonna work, I'm a physician. Became an anesthesiologist. I, I went to med school just like everybody else. I just had to try and get used to being in. Working with internal medicine, like having a patient awake in front of me telling me what he, he or her was feeling. I had to make diagnosis, diagnostic hypothesis, plan out a treatment, give the patient the treatment, wait two or three weeks for the patient to come back and see if, if the, the treatment went well. You see, anesthesia, it's so dynamic and it's so fast. I wasn't used to being a physician, so I came back. I wasn't used to being a clinical physician, so I came back to Brazil thinking, okay, I started my studies in Ayurveda, but I will not go back to working as an anesthesiologist. I don't want that anymore. Because in my head at that time, I thought that the way I was working as an, as an anesthesio was the only way to work as an anesthesiologist. I could not see other ways of working, so I didn't want that anymore. So my husband. Oh, I, I really. I need him to see this podcast because I need to say this publicly. I am so grateful because he's my, he's my. How do you say? My, My. My stabilizing rock. Like I'm, I'm. He's. He supports me and everything that I try to do in such a stable manner that I know that I couldn't do anything that can go wrong, that he will always be there for me. So in this way I, I'm so grateful for having him. I think I need a person like him as a husband really. And. But he was, he was assuring me. So I came back to Brazil and I told him I'm not going to work until I'm ready and I'm not going back to being an anesthesiologist. For him, this was a big. It was difficult because he married a rich anesthesiologist. Like the, even the way we worked with money, this is another thing that had to have a big switch was like I was the provider of the family with the money that I made and my husband's money was for us to do traveling, for him to do investing. We, we had this kind of division. It worked for us. But after all that happened to me, I went to a housewife with no profession yet studying. All I wanted to do was study. And then he had to be the provider of, of the family. So this, this, this brought along some, some troubles in our relationship too and how we were going to organize our lives. Life. One thing that I did was that we. I got rid of so many things before I went to Portugal and I realized that we. I didn't need that to be happy anymore. So like my, my life standards in terms of financial dispenses. I don't know if that's the right word, but like we had two cars. We, we. I would buy jewelry, I would buy, buy things all the time. Stuff that, that didn't make sense for me anymore. So the good thing is that I realized. We realized that we don't need to have to work so much because we can sustain a much more simpler but happier life. We live in a capitalistic world which thinks that we have to make more money because we have to buy more things and then you have to make more money. And then sometimes I think many people think that I can't give up this job or I can't not do what I'm doing, because then I won't pay my bills. Well, the first thing that I've been telling some friends of mine is like, don't make so many. Don't. Don't spend so much money. Then you won't have to work so much anymore. And this is the most priceless thing in the world is your free time with yourself to do your soul work. This was my perspective at the time. But anyway, I came back with nothing. I didn't want to do anything but study Ayurveda and not work as anesthesiologist. So, like, I was here in Brazil. But a year passed, maybe a year and a half, and I wasn't still. I was still not working. And this started making things like, okay, My husband came talking, okay, Karini, now let's start to work. You have to do something with your life. You're like, you're 48, 14 year. You can't just study right now. We have a daughter. She has needs and stuff. And I'm like, okay. And at this time, I don't know if you want to stop me to say something or can I continue? No. At this time, another friend of mine here in Brazil, a surgeon who knew that I wasn't doing anything, like I was killing myself studying. I thought that I was doing a lot and being a housewife and being with my daughter, I was really happy, but still preparing myself to work as a clinical physician without your vendor. But this friend surgeon was. Was building a new surgery service in a little public hospital that. That's near my house. And he was like, oh, come on, Karini. I know you're not working. I know you're not doing anything. I need your experience to help us build an anesthesiological service here. Because I'm building a surgery service, and one doesn't grow without the other, you know, And I. And I. And this is where I thought another. I remember that the thought of the surrendering experience blow into my. Blowed into my. My mind again. And something inside me said, say yes, say yes. And I was like, oh, okay, okay, I. I'll go, but I'm just gonna stay for one or two months. I'm gonna build the service and then I'm out. I have other plans for my life. I am not going to work as an install anesthesiologist anymore. And he said, okay, okay, come here. Do what you think, and if you want to leave afterwards, you can leave. And that leads to another big part of the story. I don't know if you have. If you Want to make any comments?
Lou: Keep, keep rocking it. Let's keep going.
Karine: Okay. And then I went to this little public hospital and the director received me. Like, for him, it was a big deal to have a new anesthesiologist that was going to help, help build a service there. And I remember that he showed me the whole hospital. It's not very big. It's a small hospital, and it's 100% public. So I had never worked with, in the public field before as an anesthesiologist. The deal was that the government would pay me to, to, to treat these patients, to do these surgeries. I would work like 12 hours a day or 6 hours a day. I could choose the day, it. I could choose the hours, the amount of hours that I would be there, and they would just book up the number of surgeries that, that I was able to. To work with. And I started telling him, I'm not going to work at night. And he said, okay, yes, ma'am, no night shifts. And I looked at him and I'm not going to work on the weekends too. And the director, okay, no weekend surgeries. And I was like, is he really going to do everything that I'm asking? And he was like. And that was happening. And then I, I don't remember what he asked me that I told him that this would be just temporary because what I really wanted to work with was Ayurveda. And he looked at me. He's a physician too, the director. Like, he, like, what. What is this screen? And then I talked a little bit about him, and then he looked at me, okay, you can work with this here, too, in the hospital, if you want to. And I was like, what? I didn't. But you don't even understand what I. I'm still learning what a is. And he looked at me, no, but I know you're going to do something that's really good for the patients, so go for it. I'll give you. You can do anything that you. I think they were really desperate for someone. I don't know, it doesn't matter really, because, you know, I was in that place with my characteristics and they were needing someone with my. It's that thing, that, that, that, that divine moment. And then I got to meet my team. I call them mine. I shouldn't, because I, I'll. They're my. I treat them as this. They were my children, the nurse staff at the, at this, the operating ward. And I just fell in love with all of them. You know, I'm in The middle of so many good people there wanting to work for these patients. These patients of our public health care system are patients that. That sometimes don't have money even to buy food. And so I feel like I was in a place where I could really offer my experience as an anesthesiologist. And now this whole spiritual awakening that was coming, because the spiritual awakening, Lou, came with Ayurveda. It's impossible to work with Ayurveda and not have. Have and not involve yourself spiritually. They go along with each other. And so I just fell in love with all of them. And I started working and, you know, when everything you don't have. I didn't have to ask for some things when I. When I saw the nurse had already provided what I needed. Like, and then I started to realize that this was a place where I could go really go work, have. I would wake up early in the morning, do my meditation, do my pujas, and go to work happy, happy, happy, and go home, like, thinking, I did my dharma today. I helped these patients, and I'm happy. And I started not only doing work with the patients, but little by little, doing work with the staff that were with me too. So I start. And the director would let. Just let me do anything that I want.
Lou: Can you share some of that? Because it's like, you know, I always say this is to anyone, it's like you can bring your purpose, you know, where you're at, independent of what you're doing. Exactly. And, you know, for you, just knowing who you are and the culture that you are creating there. Yeah. Maybe speaking to, like, how you cultivated that and really just, I think in an essence of the work that we're doing is a way for us to channel our love and our care. Right. And when people are loved and cared for and the myriad of ways that that could be expressed or felt, then, you know, we're doing our work in some ways, like. And it's. That's. I don't want to get too off the rails here, but, you know, that's. I think what you. What you are doing in so many ways and. And what's being felt is. Is exuding right through that space from the people. From the people that. The patients that come in. So. Yeah, anyway. Yeah. Maybe just sharing how that looks like for you.
Karine: First of all, I had. I gave lots of lectures in the first year I was in the hospital about Ayurveda and how the staff could use that information for their own health first. Because, you know, in the health care in the healthcare world, we are not healthy people that are helping the patients. We work too much, we sleep too little. We intoxicate our bodies with caffeine and other energy drinks because we need to be awake. We don't eat, eat well normally. So I started taking care. And we call this project Taking Care of who Takes Care, that this is the translation of it in Portuguese. It's. So I started receiving anybody from the hospital staff who wanted a consultation, Ayurvedic consultation for free. They could. There was once in one morning a week where I would receive. They would book a session with me. And so I was. It was good for them because I was able to not only help them like a physician, I was already trying to. Starting to train myself as an AIC physician with them. And it was also a way to. To do some spiritual awakening of everybody who was around me. And I think that. And then one of the things that I did, now I remember that our timeout at the surgery room. I think we talked about it in the session. There is something in the surgery room which is called the timeout moment. I think this happens everywhere. It's not only here in Brazil. The patient goes in and there again with the patient awake. Before being submitted to any procedure, we say, he says, or she says all his full name. We make sure what surgery that patient is going to do. If it has. If it's the right side, the left side, we just. We're just making checks like, you know, to be certified. This is safety, protection for the patient. So we call this moment the timeout moment. It's that first moment when the patient comes in before we really start. Start the procedures, just to check that everything is in proper place. In culinary school, we call this misemp. Plus, it's the same thing. We do this in, in lots of ways in other professions too. So I had an idea one day. Well, if the patient gets a timeout, why don't we as a staff get our time out before bringing the patients into the room? So one day I invited everybody to come into one of the surgery rooms. Like, oh, let's see what Dr. Carini is gonna do. I know. I just. We made a big circle and I told them, well, the. From day. From today on all mornings, I will be here for anyone who wants to come and have a timeout session before we start working. And the place was for everyone to have a place to say, oh, today I'm. I'm feeling bad. Today I'm feeling fine. Mind if they wanted to share something that happened with them in their life or if they just wanted to be there. Sometimes I do pranayama, some respiratory exercises with all the team. We do some little meditations. Like the, I can't use so much of the time because we have so many surgeries, but like 10 minutes, it's our timeout. And, and, and this, Lou, changes the whole energy of the day. I started seeing that they felt cared about by, by me. And so they, the more they felt cared about, the more they, they showed more caring for the patients that would come in too. Like we would have more patience for the angry patients, for the anxiety with anxious patients. Like patients, there are lots of different ways to come to a surgery. Right? So it was this moment. So I created this. Our timeout was, is our little spiritual moment as a, as a team, as a staff and goes on till today. Sometimes I forget or sometimes I get, I get a little late to work and I, I'm thinking about not doing it. And then they come. No, no, no. Dr. Kirk Karini, our timeout, our time.
Lou: Amazing. Amazing. And so I'd love to, you know, you kind of. Again, we're bringing it full circle of this hero's journey story. Share share what else has unfolded from this, this connection? And that's what I meant with like, you know, anesthesiology, cooking, Ayurveda. And it's like the connection of all of them is actually the Dharma that you're now giving and, you know, maybe sharing what, what has come up right in the Ayurvedic realm. That's, you know, what you're working on and what's also, I know there's like things on the horizon too, where you're having to get certain, you know, credential. You know, we talk about credentials on this podcast a lot where you're having to fit into getting certain credentials to serve the mission because that's the world you're in. Like you're in the Western medical world. So. Yeah. What, what, how have these opportunities now unfolded now that you're back and you're, you're, you're, you're finding the, the joy, the fulfillment on a day to day basis and seeing, okay, there's more, there's more unfolding. It seems like it's, it's. I know people think that, okay, we're at, you know, this is the end of your journey, but in so many ways this feels like a beginning, like a huge beginning of your path of like where this is actually going to go of, of, of how you're going to be bringing this to, to everything. So it's really, it's really cool to see.
Karine: Well, first of all, I did not just stay a few months, obviously at this little hospital. I started going more and more. I started going once a week, week. When I saw I was going twice a week, I was going three times a week. And I was nominated at some point as the chief. This is another thing that's really new for me. I had never been chief of anything. But my, my husband does not agree with that. He says that I'm the chief of our home, but that's another place. But I was given this, this role to play at this hospital as chief. So, and our service started growing. I needed to bring new, more anesthesiologists into the team. And in this meanwhile, the idea of me working, not working as an anesthesiologist started to fade away because I found a new way that really fulfilled me. I was feeling that I was really helping the patients. But at the same time I was like, okay, what am I going to do with Ayurveda? Where does Ayurveda fit in to all of this? And in this meantime, the universe granted me with a teacher, an Ayurvedic physician, Dr. Nivedita, which is my personal guider to, to all my studies today. And, and a beautiful, lovely Sanskrit teacher too, Priya, who's married to an Ayurvedic physician. So we get to, to share a lot of things. They bring in the Indian view of what is Ayurveda and I bring in what I'm doing and, and asking them sometimes for help. How can I work with Ayurveda in this setting, right? And so with them, basically I found out that there is a space to work with Ayurveda as an anesthesiologist in the perioperative period, like preparing the patients for a surgery in a way that, that's much more profound than I as a modern anesthesiologist can even imagine. And, and the post operative period also is a place where we can do so many things to help our patients recover better and more faster from anesthesia and from the surgical procedures. Also during the surgery is still the place where I feel I have little contributions of Ayurveda. But this is not true also because sometimes I've been doing some observations of some patients that I make a diagnosis of their Prakriti. Like for Ayurveda, each one of us is unique, right? But we have certain time, certain types of ways that our physiological body Works that we call Kappa Pitta and vata. And so I see some of these patients before their surgery in an outpatient, the ambulatory that I have. And I'm making their diagnosis also in this pre anesthetic evaluation and seeing how important it is to have this diagnosis because I can predict how the body will work during anesthesia. Like I already know that some patients will need a higher dose of muscle relaxants, for example, a Pitta constitution. Patients, he has, he has a more muscular constitution. He has a, he has a larger muscular mass, he or her. So even if, if I learned as an anesthesiologist that the right dose of the muscle relaxant is like 5 grams per kilogram of the patient's body weight, I know as an Ayurvedic physician that that specific patient will need a higher dose or will need repeatedly those. Is that. So this is just one example of my Ayurvedic observations of the patients during surgery too. And how the prediction of their, the way they will function will help me as an anesthesiologist be better prepared to attend that patient's specific needs. So, and I started doing these observations. This year was a big year where I just put my clinical eyes into observing everything that I could. And it's culminating in this is something that me and Dr. Nivedit are working on now. We're going to start writing articles you in introducing AA in a per operative period that this is something so unique, Lou, because if we go to our text, the sacred text where all the knowledge of the Yoga of Ayurveda was written for us, you will not find anything about perioperative period because surgery, anesthesia was something that didn't exist at the time, the way we know it today. So I'm really excited about this because this is something totally new, new for Ayurveda and new for modern medicine too. So I'm, I'm at this point a little bit afraid. Like, are you crazy, Karine? You know, like, what are you inventing? But I'm so surrendered to everything that I've been observing that I'm, I'm with the flow. So yes, I am working with Ayurveda and yes, it is possible to work with Ayurveda as an anesthesiologist just in the preoperative moment where I help my patients get in their best form to the surgery. I prescribe yoga exercises for them. I prescribe specific diets. I prescribe some herbal medicines for them too. And after the surgery, I've also Been working on some oil massages in the recovery room to help the patients recover from, from spinal, spinal anesthesia. So every. And what's the one thing that I'm feeling so grateful for is that this little hospital, this director, is open to these kinds of, of. Of traditional medicines. And I don't know why, but he trusts me in such a way that he lets me, he gives me the freedom to work with, with these things with our patients. So yes, this year I've been more observing. Next year I'm going to start writing and we're going to write some articles.
Lou: And you're writing the articles not just like for your substack, but they're actually for like journal, like scientific, like ayurvedic journals. Like I think that's an important point to know. Not that. No, no, dis my substack writers and writing for articles for the sake of writing articles, but this is like, this is writing articles for like medical journals. I hope people listening can, can potentially feel. At least I, I feel it is like you're. What you're hearing right now is potentially absolutely groundbreaking. Like this is a brand new connection in the world. Like this is something that's been around for thousands of years and something that's been around for a lot less, but still, you know, years, A lot of years where people are going to school, right? To be this, that this is. You're trailblazing this connection and not to get too far ahead of ourselves. We don't know, right? I. I definitely don't know. You definitely don't know, right? Your only, your only job is to keep surrendering. But the idea that in the future, you know, as this is birthed, birthed into the collective, how many people are gonna, You're. You're like the. I can't. What's a good analogy? Like, you're the, the founder of this in some ways and like you're gonna be like the lead trainer of this, you know, and it's starting in this little space in Brazil, but it, it also has the potential to spread worldwide. Like it, it has such magnificent potential. Like I don't again, don't want to get too ahead of ourselves, but it's so profound and to see you. That's why I say it's like in many ways this is the beginning. But to imagine you being the, you know, trainer of trainers, right? In. In that. That it's like this is your body of work that you're really, you know, with along with Dr. Nivedita, like helping to steward into this world is like just. I need to just point on. You heard it first on the Art and Business of Meditation podcast.
Karine: Yay.
Lou: Yeah. Just the profoundness, potential. Even if it's like not even to make things to be the biggest thing, but just what you're actually doing right now and maybe speaking to you know, you. You know what you're actually having to get more schooling for because the opportunity that you've. You've gotten around all starting this.
Karine: Well, this. You're talking about the certification that I need. Yes, because I studied the first two years, a year and a half were informal studies with another Brazilian teacher, Thiago, which I learned very much with. But then I realized that I was this year offered to give a course to the people who work with our public health system. Like I was. I was called to teach Ayurveda to those who work with the little health posts that are like other primary attention health care centers. Like the first place where people go to treat their hypertension diabetes to get then the dentists already treating them there too. I was invited to give a course to these people, nurses, physicians, nutritionists. And then we. We start. But it's a public service, right? The government needed lots of paperwork so I would be eligible to do this job. And then he. I was asked to give the cert my certification with Ayurveda and I don't have one yet because my studies were. Were still informal. I am doing a post graduation in what I think is one of the best Ayurvedic schools of Brazil with who. Who leads this school is a former. Is a physician doctor who Gay who works. Who used to work with. With ICU patients as an intensivist. Which is curious because the intensivist and anesthesiologists are almost cousins in. In. In the way that we work so alike with each other. And so I'll be finishing this post graduation course in the middle of next year. But when I was given the opportunity to do this course with which was going to be really well paid, I didn't have the credentials. And then they asked okay, but do you have any publications? Do you have anything that we can grab on? And I said no, I don't have anything at this moment. But I was grateful for that opportunity because I realized that yes, we live in a world where sometimes we need to get these credentials even though they don't give you the knowledge or, or the love or the way you're going to work with it. But sometimes it is necessary. So I'm going to Go after that. This next year, 2025 will be the year that I'm going to start to put in my curriculum everything I do with your vid. And so let's see where that will go.
Lou: The next stage for you, like many probably listening and in some ways like myself too at a different level is you know, letting yourself thrive and make money doing, doing this, doing this work. It's like, you know, even this opportunity like not quite manifesting, right where money is not. You were making good money, but it was a struggle and burnt out in that energy. But actually letting yourself make that, letting whatever's meant to, right. I'm not saying that you need to make a lot of money. We've mentioned this is not going to be the path to, to joy or happiness. But letting that be a come in so that you're now a better steward for doing more good. Right. Stewarding that into communities and for the work that and investing in whatever the school potentially that is this intersection of Ayurveda and anesthesiology. And so yeah, that's Karini's next or a continual learning as I'm sure many listening, letting yourself receive is a practice and, and I will note and then I'll. I'll give one last question what's cool too. And I know Karini is focused more in person like in a hospital, really cultivating that. But what's been cool is that she has created guided meditations for people that are about to go into surgery that I know you've posted on Insight Timer and posted on YouTube and so if you know someone that's about to, you know, go into surgery, I know some might be in Portuguese. So if you don't even want Portuguese that might be going into surgery. Those are resources. And another way that you've gotten to take your unique gifts and put them as an offer to the world is incredibly beautiful. So my last question to anyone, to Carini to you, for anyone that might be listening that's on their own surrender, experiment journey. That is maybe where you were in Portugal, you know, taking a risk, not making it work like what what is your wisdom? You know, I hope just listening to you is, is the wisdom for sure. But if we had to try and find a pithy, you know, you know, statement, what is the wisdom that you can share with them? Someone that's listening right now.
Karine: I think that the most. There's lots of changes happened. If I think about all this story that I was talking about today here, it had lots of chapters, lots of changings Beginnings and endings. Beginnings and endings. There is something inside of each one of us that is never changing, no matter what happens in the world outside. And that's who we truly are. Our soul. That soul which is here to. I believe so much in this, that our soul is here in this. This world to create, to. To. To. To go through experience. And we have this power as human beings to create anything that we want. But we have to be always attuned to our soul. And this was something that I thought that was what helped me during this whole. This whole journey. This part of my journey was like I would always go into meditation and just try to connect with my soul and think, okay, I'm here to create how I'm going to do this item, even if I don't know. But the surrender experience of opening space for the soul to do what it came to do is the most important thing. Even though I went through lots of things that were hard and I'm sure that there will be many more. We sometimes don't have the control of what's happening outside, but we can control how we react to that. Right. I could have gone back and got back to my work, but I didn't because I. Something bigger inside of me, which is my soul, which is actually the same soul that lives in everybody. Because we are all one and we are here to create and share, share our gifts. We just. It's not about finding them. I think it's just more about getting rid of the things that aren't letting you be who you are. And it's so much easier to let go than to just keep trying to find something. But it takes pain sometimes and we have to learn that it's part of the journey. And. And okay, maybe I spoke a lot already. I think that that's my message, my final message for today.
Lou: Amen. Namaste. Hallelujah. Not to be annoying and appropriate all the words, but how beautiful. Karini think this has truly been one of my favorite convert. Not really a conversation. A favorite. I guess it's a conversation. A favorite interview to have you on and get and to share your story. I cannot wait to share this with people in a way that I. I'm just so excited. So is there any way I know you don't necessarily have a website anywhere people can connect to you or support what you're doing? Is there anywhere you want to point people to.
Karine: To Maybe we could leave my email know in. In a place where people can come in contact with me. I don't. I'm still not sure about social media and me sharing Ayurveda because I think Ayurveda is so much bigger than social media and it deserves a a place where I feel more resonate resonated too. So we can share my email so if anyone wants to wants to get in touch and now I remembered all the meditations the guided meditations that I put out on YouTube or on inside Timer are both in Portuguese and in English. So if anybody English speaking hearing people want to hear something even if they don't go into surgery, maybe sending to a friend or someone who will. I have been receiving some reviews on Inside Timer about people like oh my God I never thought I would find something like this.
Lou: It's amazing and it's been nourishing amazing. So we'll leave we'll link to your Inside Timer profile and you'll leave your email. So if you found this inspiring or connecting please shoot Karini a message. I'm sure she'd love to hear from you. Thank you everyone and we will see you next time.