Finding Your Niche: Turning Your Art Into A Meditation Business w/ The Wong Janice
The Wong Janice is a cellist and composer of ambient cello meditation music. In this episode we discuss Janice stepping away from her corporate career to pursue her love for music. Janice's story is a testament to the power using your art in unique ways. She also highlights the unexpected revenue streams from various platforms and the necessity of having both technical mastery and soft skills. This episode offers invaluable advice for creatives looking to turn their passion into a thriving business.
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Music Credit: Nova by River Roots - https://www.youtube.com/riverroots
Podcast Transcript
Lou: Hello, friends. Welcome to another episode of the Art and Business of Meditation Podcast. I have another great guest for you today, the Wong Janice. The Wong Janice is a cellist composer of ambient cello meditation music. Taking cues from spirituality, neuroscience, and mysticism, the philosophy view of her music as the player and for the listener is simply to be free. With 45 million Spotify streams and counting, 49,000 followers on Insight Timer, and a growing YouTube presence, the Wong Janice reaches her global audience through recorded music, music videos, online courses, and virtual in person concerts. Janice, thanks so much for being here. It's so great to connect.
Janice: Hey, Lou, thanks so much for the invitation. Really happy to be here.
Lou: So when someone asks you, what do you do? What's your response to them?
Janice: I think you've basically said it all, that whole thing.
Lou: You just like, that's the elevator pitch.
Janice: No, but the one sentence would be, I am a music artist. I have to distinguish artists from music artists, and I also have to distinguish music artists from musician. Because if I say I'm a musician, immediately the next question is, do you play in an orchestra? Do you teach? And that totally gives the wrong impression. So I say, I'm music artist. So people get clear that I make my own music. And then I follow along saying, I make ambient cello music for meditation. And if they don't know what ambient music is, then I go on to explain that I have some effect pedals and a loop machine, and that kind of transforms the sound. And then it focuses more on making the sound more like a texture and focusing more. It sounds more like a soundscape rather than individual notes, where everything has to be perfect, like in classical music. So, yeah, that's the longer version.
Lou: If I were you, I would always have some headphones around and just say, hey, don't even just listen, close your eyes and just experience what it is. Because I think your music and the work that you do is so experiential in the best way that sometimes it might even, I can imagine, be hard to explain the power of someone listening to the type of music that you share. And so I love stories of people who have taken their unique art and have woven their own path. Right? It's such a unique path. I don't think you could have went to college for ambient cello music, meditation, wellness. There's not a simple career path to get you from here to there. So I'd love to hear when you started playing cello and was like a meditation, spiritual lens always a part of your life, or did that get brought in at a different time?
Janice: I've started to play cello when I was eight years old, or actually, I think it might have been even seven, but eight years old, and it was already my second instrument. So I started with piano, and my parents wanted me to play an instrument that could be played in an orchestra. So as I was so young, I didn't really have strong ideas about what that instrument could be. But my parents said, oh, actually, a family friend knows a teacher nearby. She teaches the cello and the flute. So basically, I had a choice between cello and the flute, and I went there to watch someone else's lesson, and it was clearly the cello. Since then, yeah, I played ten years of classical music and that became my instrument. So I dropped the piano quite soon after realizing it was just a difficult instrument. Actually, people would say string instruments are difficult, but for me, it wasn't the case. And meditation came on my path only in 2016 or maybe a little bit earlier. It was like one time there was at work a mindfulness class of 20 minutes, and the guy had said, okay, just sit in the chair and feel what there is to feel. And I was shocked. Like, I've never actually stopped to even be mindful about what my body is feeling. So that was like, mind blown. And then in 2016, I went for my Vipasana retreat to silent meditation retreat, and then that kind of became the basis of the life that I wanted to live, to have a meditation practice and live more mindfully and aware and, yeah, so it was quite a different timeline to the cello.
Lou: So what were you doing at your corporate job?
Janice: Well, I studied marketing back in the days, and then I went on to study digital marketing. And then I was at the brand Adidas, the short sports brand, and I was there as a social media manager, but at the beginning, I was community manager, which means just basically at the time, replying to tweets. So back then it was like Twitter was the big thing, so I was like, replying tweets all day and then posting on Instagram and Facebook and everything. And, yeah, it was the best job in the world. I thought I got to go to amazing places around the world also, like New York City and London and Berlin to travel to the events. And we also worked with Justin Bieber and Selena Gomez. They were our ambassadors, so it was really fantastic.
Lou: That's so funny. We actually share a really weird connection in that. I worked for Puma, but I worked for their golf division in San Diego. And so Puma, for those that are listening, don't know, Puma and Adidas were actually founded by I'm pretty sure there were brothers who broke off and developed their own brands that are obviously big for different reasons. And I think Adidas is much bigger than Puma at this. So I was doing the same things. I got into marketing and going to different events. So that's funny that we share a really interesting kind of similar background at that point. So when were you, like, okay, I am learning meditation. I'm wanting to bring more mindfulness to my life. You're still playing cello at the time. How do these two things at some point combined?
Janice: Yeah.
Janice: During the time that I had, marketing was the main thing in my life. I played cello in a more pop music or modern way, so I gave up classical music soon after I was 18 and finished all the exams. So I always played the cello on the side, mostly with other people in different bands and collaborations. And then with my job, I don't know if it was like the stars aligned or something, but I got made redundant, and then I had the chance to think about what I wanted to do next. Oh, no, I forgot, actually, one thing. So I was reaching already, some kind of yearning to do something different in my job, and none of the other companies around me were really that appealing. And, I don't know, I was just feeling kind of flat. And then I wanted to go on a sabbatical. So that's when I took the sabbatical three months. And then that's when I did the Vipassana retreat. And then on the sabbatical, I got made redundant, like, I had. Only when I came back, I had six or three months to find another job or go away. So it was like everything was kind of happening at once. And, yeah, I just decided to take the money and run, so to say. And I didn't want to just do the same thing at another company. It just really didn't inspire me to do that. And I thought, I really want to be closer to music. And so I had a lot going on, trying to work out what that path was. And I read the book the artist's way. Do you know it?
Lou: Yeah, of course, for the camera.
Janice: So that book basically changed my life and got me on the path of wanting to be music producer. And then I decided to study sound engineering and music production for a year at Abbey Road Institute in Amsterdam. And that was the start of the new chapter.
Lou: And so where does starting to create these tracks? Like, are you already creating these tracks at the time? Where are you starting to put them? How are you starting to get it out there? Did it start on Spotify. When does insight timer come into the picture? Yeah, take us there.
Janice: Yeah. While I was studying, actually, I didn't even consider making my own music yet on the cello. It actually came after. So after the study, because it was my dream to be a music producer, I still had the idea I was going to work in corporate, as in, I wanted to work for a music agency that made music for advertisements. That was the goal. That was the ideal connecting point, like the next step. And then I realized after I started applying for the jobs, I just realized I didn't have those kind of skills. And I also didn't want to be in an office anymore. So then I kind of had to take a step back and I thought, okay, what do I actually want to do next? And I didn't have a job then, so I thought, well, one path is to be an artist. I wrote down all the ways you can make money in music, and one of them was to be an artist. So I thought, okay, well, I don't have anything to do. Let's just try this route, like the most crazy idea ever, because I just had no idea how to do it and how it would work out. And then I was thinking, okay, what else do I want to do for the rest of my life? And it was cello and meditate, and this was like, without the money thing, just what would I be calm doing every day of my life? And it was playing the cello and meditation. So that was when it kind of clicked. And it's like, okay, well, then I need to make cello music for meditation because any other cello music won't work out for me.
Lou: I love that so much to just think of, what do we want to spend our time doing? I can even think in my own journey. And I was so excited to just have a meditation room in a house because I just wanted to meditate and write and read, and that's all I wanted to do. And in some ways, I do something somewhat similar to that. I hope to do more of just meditating and reading at a later date. I guess I'm on screens a lot and on calls like this a lot in different ways. That's amazing. So you're not thinking about money. You're just like, I love these two things. I want to bring more of these into my life. Can these things come together? And then are you starting? When is the first. Do you have your first track? What is your first track ever shared or created?
Janice: Yeah. So after I made that decision and back then, the initial idea was the idea of coming together with a cellar, and meditation is without the money thing. But then the reality hits, and I'm choosing this as a career. So from that moment on, I was like, all right, now you have to make this work. Now you have to actually try. So I made my first album in three weeks. I just pressed the record button, improvised, like, I concepted it, and then I improvised and edited it, put it out there. And then shortly after, a friend of mine who I was talking with over a coffee, I told her about the concept of the songs, and she said, oh, I'd love you to play at an event I'm organizing. And so then soon enough, I had my first performance. So it kind of just went really quickly, and I saw how the audience reacted. It was an old church in kind of a hippie neighborhood in the Netherlands, and it was electronic dance party, and I was playing in between the DJs. So it was a cool, really cool thing. And as soon as I started playing and my music is really slow, everyone just became quiet. And I thought, this is exactly what the audience should be like. I just hate audiences that are loud, and I just didn't want to play to audiences like that anymore. So as soon as I had this quiet audience, I was like, okay, something is happening in the room, and I just have to keep going. So, yeah, that was 2019, and from then on, I was just performing a lot and doing any performance I could in yoga studios, small festivals, just getting myself out there. I even did home concerts for up to ten people regularly, and that was just the beginning.
Lou: Such a beautiful synchronicity to start on this, get this opportunity, and I can see people being in that trance, literally. You're kind of meditation in some ways is creating that trance state. I could see that being a really cool buffer in an EDM show, for sure. So how long did it take you to support yourself financially and actually monetize your creativity now that you were like, okay, I need to make this a career? Did you cut back on things? Did you have savings saved up where you can kind of be okay for a little while? What did that look like?
Janice: Yeah, that first year was really tough. The year before was when I studied, and I had already the buffer and everything. But then the actual 2019 was really tough. I was playing sometimes for free, sometimes donation base, sometimes at the Yoga studio. Just really small amount. Didn't even cover my Uber. So it was really tough the first year, and I don't know if this is the stars aligned for me, but during the pandemic, that was actually when I started to be able to support myself because I got a couple of great opportunities and they changed my life.
Lou: Tell us more.
Janice: Yeah, well, the first was I told you I was doing some home concerts in my apartment and they were through Airbnb. An old neighbor of mine was offering Airbnb experiences an experience. So it's like a tiny thing of Airbnb that nobody really knows.
Lou: I'm familiar with it. Yeah, definitely.
Janice: It was an idea that I had just to be busy and to show that I was busy. So I was offering all these home concerts throughout 2019, and it wasn't very successful, but I was showing that I was busy and that was the main point. And practicing my craft, that was the other thing. And then when the pandemic hit, I basically got an email from Airbnb saying, hey, we like your experience. We want to know if you want to be one of the first. Was it 50 hosts to go live on our online experiences platform? And I was like, hell yeah, I don't have anything else to do. And all 50 hosts that got signed up, we were just thrown into the world and we were all busy for months. Like booked out day in, day out for weeks. So it was really exciting, but also very scary as well because it was so draining and you didn't know when to stop because you just didn't know when the pandemic would stop either, or when online things would change. So that was the first. And then luckily, it kind of died down and I got my life back. I could actually take a weekend then. Insight Timer, I think I also got contacted. They wrote to me and they said, hey, would you like to offer a course on our platform? I was already a teacher there offering cello music, but yeah, they asked me to do a course and I said I would love to. And so my first course was chakra cleansing with Deep cello, and that was a real hit. They just promoted me to the whole community and it got picked up really well. And that was another thing that really changed my life.
Lou: Yeah, I love hearing people's insight timer stories as being someone. Obviously, that channel has been a huge catalyst for me in so many ways, and courses are definitely a big piece of that and they continue to evolve in different ways. I'm curious if you're willing to share, what does Airbnb pay for something like that if you're doing, like, an online, or did you choose the price for that? They ask you of like, hey, what do you want to charge for this? Or is it like, per head? There's a curiosity in me yeah, it's.
Janice: Per ticket or per group. So in the beginning I did public sessions. That's per ticket, like per person. And then right now I've pivoted to only doing corporate virtual experiences. So I don't do any public ones anymore. And then I set a group price for the group size and then Airbnb take a cut of that.
Lou: Gotcha. Okay. So it's like they take like a percentage of, I mean, and you're still doing those Airbnb experiences now?
Janice: Yeah, it's crazy. I don't really look for more gigs, but like, corporates are still booking. I don't know about the public stuff. Maybe it's still going as well. But I'm still getting booked from Airbnb. And also on my own website, I get some people who rebook me from the pandemic Times. It's really a huge help in terms of my revenue streams.
Lou: I think that might be helpful to just put a pin on for a second. And I know some people on here, maybe they are coming at this as musicians and wanting to like, well, how do I find a way, like meditation, like wellness. I want to bring this into. I want to make a living in corporate wellness. I'm actually doing a corporate wellness thing tomorrow. So I'm also curious for myself of, not that I'm going to bring in an instrument that would probably not go over too well, but I'd love to hear how you structure those sessions. I mean, is it 45 hours? Are you playing for that long? And having just people relax? Is There kind of different experiences, workshopy things, journaling? I know you have a course with Journaling as well. Is that something you bring in? So I just love to hear as I think it might be helpful how a musician or an artist, music artist would structure a corporate wellness experience.
Janice: Typically I offer 1 hour sessions. And then in the beginning it's more like just meet and greet. And then I introduce the experience, what they can expect, and I invite them to get their space ready, just to get somewhere cozy, get their headphones and.
Lou: Are they lying down for this?
Janice: It's really up to them. I don't like to set rules because they might be in the office, they might be at home. I try to keep it quite broad. And basically I'd start with a small guided meditation. Just close your eyes and breathe with them. And then at the moment I'm structuring it with three pieces. So every piece I do a prompt. So the first one, for example, could be gratitude theme. So I introduce the theme and then for ten minutes, I will play a piece. So I never talk on top of the music. It's just more like a thought starter. And then I give the music space to be alone. And then sometimes I get customization requests. So for half hour sessions, and typically if the client wants something else, then we work together. So one client has asked for journaling, specifically journaling workshop, and others just want like one piece as an introduction to a conference or whatever. So I'm really flexible, and I always ask them what kind of themes they would like if they feel like inputting as well.
Lou: Yeah. So three, you're kind of taking a break for a second, introducing a new theme, going into the next portion of it, and you're in the moment with the Music. Right. Kind of Channeling the Music through you. It's not like you have a prepared set that you're actually playing as far as Music Wise, or maybe you do from ones that you have channeled and you bring in. Or is it. Yeah, you're just kind of in that experience, letting it through.
Janice: Yeah. At this point of my artistry, let's say I'm not pre recording anything. In the beginning, I did to help me a bit, just in case something went wrong. I still had something to, of course, but now I'm more confident to just make the loops alive and just let everything fall. Let the chips fall.
Lou: Yeah. So beautiful. So I'm curious what your parents, since they wanted you to, or maybe guided you to do play instruments that might lead to an orchestra, what did they feel, think about your current career path at this moment?
Janice: It's strange. Yeah. Because even though they would want me to play in an orchestra when I was young, it doesn't mean they want me to be a musician as a career. And that's a typical immigrant background or Chinese background. Parents, they just want their kids to excel at everything and have the opportunities they didn't when they were young, which I'm absolutely grateful for. But then when it comes down to it, they would really prefer their children to do something more practical in business or law or be a doctor.
Lou: Yeah, big three. Sure.
Janice: And studying music, I mean, studying marketing was my own choice at first. I wanted to combine it, but didn't work out through the universities and the course choices. And I'm really happy with that, actually. They didn't offer any. Back then, the choices for music courses were very old school. Now it's different, but back then I was quite happy just to study whatever. And I think now my parents, they were a little bit surprised and a bit worried. Still are a bit worried, actually. Not in the sense of that. I'm not financially stable, but it's more that they see that I work a lot. You always have those emotional up and downs because it's not that steady every time. There are certain incomes that I have recurring, but it's not like the exact amount that I can expect. And then some things work more and some things work less. So it's just like I can feel that they are a bit worried about that because I get anxious as well. It's not easy all the time.
Lou: What are the revenue streams of a person, a music artist, doing the things that you're doing? Insight timer, your Airbnb gigs. You have Spotify, obviously. That's kind of diluted for sure. I'm sure. But yeah, I'm just curious how you piece it all together.
Janice: Yeah, well, you've named the three biggest. Yeah. Insight Timer, the corporate gigs. And believe it or not, Spotify is paying me pretty well these days.
Lou: Amazing.
Janice: And, well, if you look closely at the data, it's not my original music that is getting all the streams. It's actually a project that I have with a friend and we make cover songs. He's a wedding pianist, Benny Martin, piano player from Australia, actually, and we do cross continent collaboration and he really helped me. So he was already established before I joined him. And after we started collaborating a year later, the algorithm kind of was starting to pick up our songs and they're just like going off.
Lou: That's amazing.
Janice: Yeah, I'm really happy about that as well because it's fun too.
Lou: Yeah, that's the dream. And I think to just create, have it out in the world and keep just getting paid for stuff that you created and get to create more, I think it's a dream for me and I get to have some sense of that, especially with the content and meditations for. And so, yeah, having that cross pollinate in different ways is. I saw you also doing stuff on YouTube. Have you been able to crack the YouTube code at all with the stuff that you're doing?
Janice: Yeah, that algo. No, I actually just stopped it. Not like gave it up for good. But from the start of the year, I had quite a strict plan for myself to upload a video every Friday with a newsletter. And I've been really dedicated. I think I've even done it for two years. But this year I incorporated also bandcamp into the mix and also trying to get memberships going and seeing if I could also get monthly subscribers as well. And see if I could build an audience there on Bandcamp or YouTube. And it just hasn't picked up. Like the Spotify, it is growing, but it's so slow. And then I just had to stop it because I didn't have time for any other projects. And it was kind of eating my joy because I was so focused on the editing, the admin of it. And it's hard when you work for yourself to be persistent in something and to know that if you keep going on something, it's going to work out, but also to stop something. It's also hard. And not to beat yourself up about it because it's also the right decision.
Lou: Yeah, that's a great question. It's like, how do we know that to keep going? How do we know that? Maybe we're just in the dip and we're just so close to something kicking off and how do we know when to say no? And it sounds like maybe I'm projecting a bit. Is it just like to not have, where your energy is, like, where your excitement is? Were you not getting excited about. I've seen some of your YouTube videos. I mean, there's ones that feel like, super well produced. You're in abandoned buildings doing a very serious kind of film production of it, which is amazing, but also, I can imagine so much time consuming for that piece of content. So was it like just. I guess, as also just a lesson for anyone listening to know when to stop something and when to keep going? What's the inner experience of that?
Janice: I think it's just a feeling, like I just have to keep checking in with myself. Something doesn't feel right, but I'm not really sure what. And then having to face the truth of okay, that is actually overwhelming me. Like, thinking of spending that time every week. Like, I'm losing my Friday evenings, basically. I lost the whole Friday evenings for the whole year so far because I would spend all day doing that. That was my Friday project, and in the beginning it was supposed to be my creative Friday. That's what I called it. And in the end, it turned out to be an admin Friday in the terms of editing. And just because I had prepared all the music stuff earlier and I was just literally editing.
Lou: Got it.
Janice: It's happened a couple of times over the last few years where I really just had to stop stuff. And it's a hard decision, but you feel like, okay, I will just cut my losses. It's okay.
Lou: Yeah. We only have so much time, and we only have so much energy to focus on and especially if you have like three. You're juggling so many different things. To have another ball in the air, it takes effort. I'm curious about your marketing background. Has that had an impact in what you're able to do now? Do you have any insights in marketing that you've been able to use on your own in however you share, whether it's on social media or otherwise? Has any of that transferred?
Janice: I think so. I think some people are also just very good at social media because they're like native to it and they use it a lot. But I actually learned a lot in my job. And also one of the main things that I was doing was building community, and that's something that I've started to do as well in my own business. So I have a community and I call them the Wong family and they're wongies and everyone's a wong. And it's just something that I've brought from my job actually seeing the value of community.
Lou: And do you have that hosted on Insight Timer? Is there another platform where you have a group that you're engaged with? I know Instagram now has broadcast channels. Do you have multiple places where you're cultivating?
Janice: Oh, actually, not really. I just have a newsletter, but then I told you, I just stopped that one as well. So in general, it's just like, I know they're out.
Lou: Got it. I got it. Right. If people are watching it, then that's like part of the family. I totally get that. And that's a lesson. I don't know if you know Pat Flynn at all, but he writes about a lot, about building community. But if you can give your community, like a name, I think his is. I know he runs a podcast called Smart Passive Income, and I think it's something with his last name, too. I don't know what it is, but giving your community a name just kind of creates some sense of cohesion and identity that can be helpful in cultivating, building an audience and cultivating community. And I like this. It's been Something I've been thinking about. When we think of community, we often think of that sense of people all knowing each other. But in this world, sometimes it's like our community is almost broader where those people don't have to know each other. Because I think a lot of people I know, I get burnt out trying to think of having a group of people that I need to cultivate and continue to have connect or make it valuable to be in a group space. But I like just thinking about community as you shared it in just this broader sense of just almost like the brand that you're building. Obviously it's not like a traditional community, but there is a similar feeling that people are having with our stuff that we can see, but they might not necessarily see it with others. But I find that that's helpful. I don't know if I'm making sense.
Janice: Yeah, there are definitely people who know each other from my community. Like they join the YouTube lives or the live streams on insight timer or in the pandemic. I had a group and I was very active at that time. So there are definitely people who know each other. And I know a lot of people as well, by name. And I even met one from Insight timer who visited Amsterdam. And some people email me after not every, but sometimes after my newsletters. So I really can get personal with the community.
Lou: Yeah, that's great. What skills have you found most important as a solo business owner?
Janice: And the word that you mentioned before was mastery. So the most important thing was I'm a master of my cello. You have to be a master at something in the business, otherwise it's just not going to work. So the most important thing for me as an artist is I need to be good at what I do. And I did study for one year at the audio school. So then I was also able to record and sonically be able to create the sound that I wanted to hear, and that was important for me as well. So playing the cello and that skill of being the audio engineer and recording artist, but with that said, you can also outsource those things too. But for me personally, that's my success story, that I can do everything myself and then I don't have to be in the red constantly paying people to do everything. And for the rest, I think skills are just more soft skills, like discipline and persistence. Like I mentioned before, consistency, taking action is a big one. And being curious, always willing to learn, adapting to change. These are all, I would say, on the top of the list. So there are a lot of soft skills that you need. And networking, really, it's so valuable to be able to connect with people and build that kind of bond. Even if it's a loose bond, it doesn't matter. I've had so many opportunities just because I met somebody at that event and we connected on Facebook ten years ago.
Lou: Yeah, that's been my word this year. And it's also, I know we were talking before we aired. It's been my excuse of this podcast is getting a chance to network with people in many ways. Not to say that I need opportunities to come from it, but it's just been fun to poke my head out. I feel like I've been in my own world and this year has been a big. Just connecting with so many different people and so many different lenses or around this work or around people that are running their own businesses. I love that you emphasized the best thing for your business is to have a kick ass product. Like, if you have a really good product, if you have really good food, people are going to tell other people about your food. Yes, we need the sales and marketing. We need to get ourselves out there. But just really honing in on, yeah, have a really good thing. Love doing that thing. Do the things that you love in your business, even if you can outsource it, especially at first, is, I think, an important for everyone to just, oh, is my product as best I can. As I say this, there's also this counterargument of not perfectionism, that there's this term of minimum viable product that sometimes we have to not just get the stuff out there to get response back. So that's a way to build your great product. You mentioned taking action and learning and adapting. Is there a story or a time where you took action? It didn't work out. Maybe it was gut wrenching, some kind of failure that you've learned from that might be supportive for others to hear.
Janice: I think I'm constantly making not mistakes, I wouldn't call them mistakes, but constantly making things that I'm learning from. And just what you said, I've learned, and I'm a perfectionist, but I learned very early on, or I was determined not to let perfectionism trip me up. So even with the first album, I was like, I'm pretty much okay with it at this level. Like 80% or maybe okay, no, it's probably a little bit more because it was my first album. The rest are a bit less, maybe. But I released it and immediately I've noticed a mistake. I was like, oh, no, the fade outs are not like, I won't go into the technical thing, but yeah, the fade outs were wrong. And I was like, oh, God. And then I released a second album, I think a year later, or even the same year. I can't remember. Oh, shit. I'm not sure if I'm allowed to.
Lou: You can curse here, it's fine. We're explicit meditation teachers.
Janice: But I actually put the wrong title of the album and I submitted it and they wouldn't change the title, and I didn't want to pull it off because I'd already told everybody and did all this promotion on Instagram. Okay, it wasn't that much, but I felt like it was a shame to pull it down if people were already listening. So I had the wrong title for years, and I only was able to change it, like, this year.
Lou: Oh, my God. It wanted to be that title, I guess, right? It's like, this is what it wants to be.
Janice: And the worst thing was that I, for some reason, decided, like, on the first album, I didn't have any text, but on this album, I decided to actually put text on. So the title was different to the text.
Lou: Oh, my gosh. What was the title and what was it supposed to be?
Janice: It was cello music for Sleep was what it was supposed to be. And that was written on the album, but because every time I did a perFormance, it was called Cello Meditation Concert. So my fingers always wrote cello meditation. So I wrote it as cello meditation for Sleep, which is. It works, but it just wasn't what I wanted.
Lou: Right. Yeah, totally. That's funny. So you are solo. Do you have anyone working with you? Do you outsource? Do you have an assistant? Have you at that point yet? Or what does that look like if you do have one?
Janice: I've been thinking about it probably for three years already to get my first intern, even an intern, but I haven't been able to pull the trigger.
Lou: Interesting. Yeah.
Janice: And it's really tough because you can't possibly do everything by yourself. And all the books that I read, especially about business, it's about scaling, is only possible if you outsource. So I know it's like the next step, but I just can't do it for various reasons. I'm really a lone wolf sometimes, and I wouldn't necessarily advise it. I would say, if you are happy to collaborate with people, do it.
Lou: Yes. I think when I started outsourcing, just to give you, I guess, my own experience, it was definitely such a game changer, and I'm so grateful. And to the two people that would be listening to this, Lester and Joyce. Thank you for your work in ways, because with this podcast, I don't think I would be able to edit it, or I just thought I wouldn't be able to it, but I wouldn't want to spend the time editing, doing all that back end stuff. Like, I love just getting to come on here, talk to cool people, sending it out, and then it all gets done in the background. So I definitely would recommend if you feel like you're at a clutch point. I found it extremely helpful in my journey. You mentioned business books and I'm also wondering if there's been investments, whether in coaching business books that have been helpful for you in building and growing and just continuing to grow what you're doing.
Janice: Yeah, one book I can recommend is the company of one. I think it's by Paul Jarvis. It's a kind of newer book, but it's quite solid. And it just basically, even if you're not solo, even if you own a company with employees, the concept is more about building everything slowly and not just relying on big injections of cash, because that's not sustainable and it's more volatile. So building a business with the mindset of a company of one, even if you're a startup or have employees, that's more successful in the long term. And there are many other great title.
Lou: I love the title. So good.
Janice: And further from that, I did invest. So after the studies, that was the biggest investment. But after that I've wanted to invest in other things to improve and to get to the next level. At first I bought a 300 euro online course from. It was like an Instagram ad. I got sucked in.
Lou: Got it.
Janice: It was good, but it turned out to be like all the stuff was really difficult and I couldn't do all the automations and make all those website funnels by myself. And then I got kind of baited into another coaching program, also about funnels, because I thought, okay, scalability. And I was just only thinking about growth. And I fell into this other coaching program, which was $5,000 actually. And this is one of the things that I really had to just pull the plug. I went through I don't remember how many months, but it just wasn't for me. And it was hard for me to part with that money as well and to kind of say, I don't want your help, I'm going to keep going and go without the funnels. And I realized I'm just not ready for it. And growth mindset is not what I need to focus on right now. And I think that was a big learning. Like, I really need to just focus on the things that are working and build my catalog. And that's how I'm going to feel more free and more joy. But the moment that I started to focus on the growth and trying to implement new technologies and trying to learn this and learn that, I just felt like, okay, I'm going more and more away from my artistry and it's just leading me down the rabbit hole of what the company of one was saying against don't make these huge investments and throw money into paid Social media ads. And I think paid ads work and I have friends that they work for, but it's just like I couldn't personally commit to the strategy that they had proposed. And yeah, it was tough, but I think I would just keep on going in my own way.
Lou: Yeah, but those big money, not for us things, I've had a similar, different but similar experience in investing in a coach, and it was fine, but it wasn't what I was hoping to get or wasn't at least the ROI on what I invested. And those are often the best lessons, like when we feel the pain of making kind of mistake and then, okay, well, what is it that really, why did I do this? And for me, in that one experience, I was doing it out of a sense of vanity. I thought this person was popular and I didn't want to miss out in some way. Like there was this FOMO access when I've also done coaching where it was like a lot of money but expansive and excited. And so I always tell people to really check with your intention, like, why are you doing it? What's the underlying thing? Are you doing it out of a sense? And it's a tough thing to deal with, right. Because we learning things that we don't have. So there is a sense of deficiency sometimes, but really just checking with, are you excited about spending time to implement funnels and Facebook ads and stuff? And I'm actually considering Facebook ads right now. I'm in that process in that way. But I find a litmus test for when you ask yourself, when is it right to invest in something, there's a few ways. It's like, is something really exciting you and enthusing you? And then the other aspect is, I know for me it's like when something stops working, there's a clear pain point that's like, okay, I need to figure out another way to do this. And there's the concept in entrepreneurship of like, who, not how. So instead of asking, how do I do this, ask who knows how to do this? That can help me and help me a lot easier than me doing it. So something to think about when you're thinking about investing in coaches, whether it's business, personal, marketing, ads, all different things, they're amazing. And I suggest it. And obviously I'm biased because I do coaching, but it's something to constantly just think about thinking of your intention beforehand. So if you were to give yourself business or personal advice, as you starting out, if you were to look at yourself at the beginning of your journey, maybe just like having the idea of bridging cello and meditation, you might have already shared it in this talk that we've had. But is there any things that you can tell a young version of yourself to look out for to do differently? And I'm sure she had to do everything she had to do, and it was, Paul, perfect. But what might you say to her?
Janice: I think just the reassurance to keep going because sometimes I would literally wake up and I was thinking, like, in 2019, I was like, what am I doing? And I never gave up. But it would have just been nice to have someone. I mean, I actually also had people around me, close people, loved ones as well, to support me. But yeah, that's the only thing. Just that support, moral support. I think the rest I did pretty okay.
Lou: Yeah, I think that's so big to just stay in the game. Like, if you're listening to this and you're feeling doubt, that's normal, natural. And I would just ask you, like, if this is something you want to do 20 years from now, or whatever the evolution of it looks like 20 years from now, spending 1234-5678 years figuring it out, you're going to have to pivot obviously, to different things, and you don't want to beat something that's not going to be working, but to stay in that, really, there's not a failure. The only difference between people who make it and people who don't is just time and energy. Just if you just keep putting energy into it. I'm just a big believer in that. Janice, do you have any tools? I know you mentioned a business book. I don't know if you also mentioned the artist. Morning. Is there any other creative books or even technological tools that you use that maybe it's helpful for Someone in their business or something to think about? And I'm asking two questions at once. I tend to do that on this podcast.
Janice: I think those two were the main books. One thing that also really helped me, it's not about artistry. It's in fact the opposite. But the old school marketing one. Think and grow rich. Napoleon Hill. I actually had the book for more than ten years. Like, my auntie gave it to me and it just never was the right moment to read it. And I took it with me to Amsterdam when I moved here. And when I was changing my career, I was like, now's the time to read it. And it literally was so good. Not the tone of voice. Like, I really hate that kind of blasty capital letters, like shouting thing. And it's very male dominated, like only successful males in the last century. So there are a lot of things that I don't like about it, but that's beside the point. But the concept, like the actual concept and the stories, I think one thing, you almost said the exact quote, but it was, there's no such thing as failure. It's just people who give up. And that was really powerful to me. And so as soon as I decided, okay, I'm going to make it as an artist, I've worked my ass off to try to get it to work. So some people, they think they work hard, but yet they're not networking or they're not upskilling or like, they don't see the possibilities. So I think that was one thing that I did that kind of paved the way. Always showing up, like constantly working, but also showing my work and being present. So people always knew that I was busy. They knew me, and they also knew my work too. That's the only three things I love.
Lou: That to show your work, because if people are associated, that's even just marketing, right? To show the journey, show that you're doing the thing, show that you're out there and people are going to associate you with, oh, when I need this thing, or if I'm looking for this thing, I'm seeing Janice all around doing her thing. So that's a great insight in just that. So anything that we didn't talk about that you're like, Lou, I think this would be helpful for meditation guides, creators, artists. And if nothing comes to mind, you're welcome to share what you're working on now and how can people can support you.
Janice: I think one thing that I'd like to share to other anyone else out there, whether you're an artist or more in the wellness space, but is to well, first be good at what you do, that's clear. But to also find one thing, like, I see it with my friends. They don't like to choose and they have too many interests in the career space. I mean, so it can be a bit too much for the audience to really understand what they're about. And I think that kind of paralyzes them to be known as the breath work coach. If you're offering also that and that and that and that. It's like, hang on a second. Who are you? It's not strong. So one of the things that I would really like to share is just to pick one of course you're allowed to have other things. I also do cover songs. It's not like I don't do the others, but I just don't talk about it as much. It's like people know me as I'm blasting only my cello meditation music. Of course I do other things. And even if you are a yoga teacher, but what's your point of difference? There are so many yoga teachers, even if you're a yoga Nidra teacher, so what can you do to be different? And that's what I'd really like to share because I personally don't know anyone else in the whole world doing cello meditation full time. If that's not unique or a niche, then I don't know what is.
Lou: But I might associate you and Garth Stevenson.
Janice: Oh, yeah, exactly. And he's the double bassist. We don't even play the same instrument, thank God. Otherwise it would be a problem. But he inspired me early on. I was like, whoa, look what he's doing with his effect petals. So, yeah, he's definitely helped inspire me along the way. And I think it's valuable for people to know, dare to be different, and that's how you're going to get somewhere.
Lou: You must have looked at my website before this and giving that advice to me, even at this stage, because I feel like I do so many different things and I have such a hard time saying that I do this for this type of person and this is the type of coach I'm at. And that's actually the barrier that I find myself coming against of really getting clear and staking myself as this type of thing. So thanks for another nudge from the universe to lean in and figure that out, because I think it is important and helpful and it doesn't mean that you're saying no to everything. It's just, yeah, right now, this is what you're associated with and it branches off from that. So amazing advice and wisdom and, yeah, what are you creating? What's exciting you now?
Janice: Literally, like, half an hour before I got on this call with you, I finished off my next course on Insight Timer. Yay.
Lou: Yay.
Janice: Yeah, it's been actually two years in the making. I've been sitting on it for a while just because it didn't feel right. I couldn't get the concept right. But the music, like, the sounds were recorded two years ago. I recorded sounds in Sardinia in a Mediterranean island. And it's all based on water. So, like, rain sounds, streams, like river stream, and also sound of the waves. It's all based on how to be like water, based on Taoism. And, yeah, I guide them through eight lessons of how to be more like water.
Lou: So cool. What's the title? Would you have a title yet?
Janice: I think it's just like that.
Lou: Yeah.
Janice: How to be like water. I couldn't think of a better one. So I think that's just going to be it because I've already recorded. I mean, I finished it, I've uploaded.
Lou: I've done that before where I've recorded, I've said the name of it, but then I want to change the title. But I've just talked about the name this whole couple of days and. Yeah, I feel you on that. Yay. Exciting. Definitely go follow the Wong Janice on Inside timer if you haven't. And her albums on Spotify, Instagram is anywhere else you want to send people to.
Janice: That's the main. But YouTube, because I need more followers there.
Lou: Give her the boost to get back on YouTubE. She's got some great her. Get her a viral video. So it gives that little spunk of like, okay, maybe there's something here. All right, Janice, thank you so much for joining. This was so fun. I knew it would be. Thanks for sharing your wisdom and your artistry and your gifts and being an example. I can't say this enough, that you're an example of finding your unique path and helping people. Right. Being of service through that. And so I have great admiration for you and just what you're doing in the world. So thanks for sharing time here.
Janice: Thanks so much, Lou. It was my pleasure and all the best to you as well.
Lou: Take care, friends.