Reconciling Dharma & Dollars: Examining The “Business” of Meditation w/ Buddhist Teacher, Jessica Morey
This isn't the conversation I prepared to have, but I'm so grateful we had it! Jessica Morey is an experienced teacher in the Theravada Buddhist lineage. She is the co-founder of Inward Bound Mindfulness Education and a teacher on the 10% Happier Meditation app.
In this episode, we explore the central question—should one make a business out of meditation? Jessica shares her concerns and discusses the practice's roots in a monastic gift economy. She emphasizes the importance of intention and personal embodiment in teaching meditation, as well makes room for where ambition and wealth can play a role in expanding meditation's impact. This is an important listen for meditation teachers and practitioners alike.
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Music Credit: Nova by River Roots - https://www.youtube.com/riverroots
Podcast Transcript
Lou: Hello there, friends. Welcome to another episode of the Art and Business of Meditation podcast. I'm your host, Lou Redmond. And today we have. I'm excited for our conversation with Jessica Mori. She is a meditation teacher and contemplative coach. She began practicing meditation at the age of 14 on teen retreats offered by Insight Meditation society and has maintained a consistent practice since. She's also a lead teacher and co founder and former executive director of Inward Bound Mindfulness Education, which runs in depth mindfulness programming for youth and parents and professionals who support them across the US. Jess, you go by Jess, right? Jess, welcome to the show.
Jessica: Thank you. Thanks. Good to meet you, Liv. Good to be here.
Lou: So, Jess, you've already, in a good way, have activated my nervous system. I felt a little activated even just preparing for this because, as I mentioned this to you before, there was knowing how steeped in a lineage and how your depth of practice, it brings up my own insecurities around who am I to be doing this? Who am I to be talking about this kind of rogue meditation teacher? And maybe a better way, I think, to speak to you because I don't think I've shared this yet. The way that I see meditation is how a singer sees songs. So I really consider myself a teacher. I'm teaching people a step by step practice towards some sort of state or some sort of way of being. I've found kind of an art just how if I have an idea and someone would write a picture, I have an idea and I create a meditation. And that's, you know, it's. I have so much. It brings me so much joy and it's a way for me to express and connect with another person. So that's just, I mean, something that I don't think I've shared with you and kind of how I look at meditation. So having you on being this steeped teacher, I've also started a business in youth mindfulness, too. Seeing the work that you've done to like, okay, Lou, I might. I felt like I might get exposed. And lo and behold, we started this conversation and you bravely sharing just kind of maybe some uncertainty around having or promoting the business of meditation. And we started having a little bit of a conversation around that and we were like, well, let's just hit record and see where this goes. So let's start with that. Anything else you want to color around the maybe hesitation around business of meditation, even just that language? Maybe we can just start there.
Jessica: Yeah. Yeah. And I'd say that I'm of many minds about it, like holding multiple perspectives. But as I thought about preparing, like thinking about coming on podcasts with you and talking about it, I, inside of myself, could feel some significant hesitation, particularly around the idea of a business. And I come from the Theravada buddhist lineage, which the commitment of my western teachers that came from their asian teachers and some of my own asian teachers, is that meditation is freely offered to the teachings, are freely offered to make them as accessible as possible. And that that's how the Buddha did it. And so the monastics would teach, the Buddha would teach, and then lay practitioners would offer food, shelter, housing, clothing. But they lived a very, very simple monastic life, like, for example, and they weren't allowed to touch money. If you go to a practice in Burma when I was young, the monks can't touch money. They can't keep food overnight. So some of these are that they have to be dependent on the laypeople to feed and support them. So there's like a built in interdependence on the laypeople. But that's what I was trained in that spirit. And so when I teach at the insight meditation society or any of the retreat centers that are affiliated, we teach for free. I mean, quote unquote free. It's for Donna. And then the end of the retreat, students are invited to give whatever amount they want to give to support the teachers. So we don't go in with any sense of what that is going to look like. And that feels really beautiful. It feels really beautiful to be in that kind of, like, gift economy with this priceless practice that we've had. Go ahead.
Lou: Yeah, no, there's something really pure for sure about that, because it's not one. There's no expectations of. Okay, what's the value here? And I remember being on one of those retreats, and I think maybe it gets to some people where they're asking, well, how much should I donate? What's the right thing to donate? And they asked that to one of the guy who does the donation talk, or I believe, I think they call it something you would obviously know. But he, you know, he said, you know, whatever in your heart and makes you a little uncomfortable or something like that, or makes you, like, kind of on that edge. And I've used that energy hearing that from him anytime I'm making a donation or when I'm really trying to stretch, because that number's gonna change, right? And that's you. It's gonna be like, you know, at 1.1 hundred dollars, gonna feel like $500 might feel it depends on your resources. And, you know, I guess this, when we, when we have this conversation like we were having before around, well, how do, how do I make. Okay the business of meditation? I'm so grateful because I'm making resources and we can. I make most of my money through coaching. And we could talk about the difference of like coaching and meditation because. And we could talk about how I see specifically there's a lot of people that listen to this podcast on Insight Timer, and I've talked about how like, that's, people are going there in a way that's different than when it started and it's. You can feel a shift in the energy. We can, we can sideline that topic. But coming back to the donations, like, I feel so grateful that I can lean in and support those teachers that are doing this for free at a, at a higher rate. Right. Being in some ways like a benefactor where that energy can flow. And so coming back to how I navigate wanting to make money is because I can do things like that. I can go on retreat and give to this teacher. I can give here. I can feel this flow of abundance in that way that I know in the past when I was. There's always relative, I think we can always. You're not going to start being a super generous person when you have a lot of money, right? That's the false kind of story. Like, you start with where you're at, with what you have. And it's. Yeah, it's just I feel blessed that I, that I can do that and share other practitioners, other healers or teachers and different modalities that you massage, you know, therapists or whatnot. Being able to give that money because I've been able to, you know, from my blessings, been able to bring money in, in that way. So. Yeah. In that lineage, for sure. Understand. But I guess this goes to the question next is where has things from the, I feel like the secular mindfulness movement, which brought it maybe more mainstream and opened up to more people, and then more people are like, this is something that's interesting and now I want to teach it. So the threads of what you've seen happen with that. How do you think about that? Or where do you want to point people to maybe offer other perspectives on. Okay, well, I love mindfulness or I love meditation. I don't like my job. And this feels like something that I can do for a job. What is your response to some of those people?
Jessica: Yeah. So I created and led a teacher training program for people that work with youth for many years. So, and it's still happening. So this is like a common reflection. And also at running this organization, we would invite people in to teach. And there's a process, like, and there are people that wanted to teach. So I'm like, have been in that conversation with people. What I think personally is most important is, like, what is your intention? What is your intention with teaching meditation? Why? And if it really is coming from I don't like my job and that seems like it'd be more fun, then that wouldn't be the intention that I would want to cultivate and support. If it's like someone is, I always recommend, like, you just keep doing your practice. You keep doing your practice and seeing what's shifting inside of you and seeing what then is, like, naturally arising out of you to offer to other people and let it come from there. Or the invitations, like, when it starts to be an invitation, like, you know, teach me more about that. Why? What's, why are you changing so much? What are you doing? Like, that kind of motivation that's out of service or contribution out of your own transformation. And then, of course, we live in a society where we need money. So it's like making some money doing that, but it's like, what's the primary motivation is what matters to me. Yeah. Yeah.
Lou: And so let's keep coloring this in. Someone has, and maybe this was, if I think of me and I had a. I don't know how much you listened to of my story, if you were listening to any of the episodes, but I got into meditation, and this is where my background comes from. I come from maybe a background, like, not like k, but more of an entrepreneurial background in the sense of an entrepreneur, in a sense that an entrepreneurial group. I was someone who was just partying and drinking and just living a kind of a really unconscious life. And I hit a low point. And I was in this group that just opened my eyes to this whole different life and different possibilities. And I, because of that group, started reading books, started bettering myself, started drinking less. And it was meditation was just a habit of successful people that I tried on because these people were saying I was just a sponge. Like, I'll try anything. You guys are beyond what I just felt lucky to just be in this little space in this group. And through meditation, really, without looking for anything spiritual, I had a pretty sudden opening, which led me to quitting drinking very suddenly, which led to this other big opening, which led me to quitting my job. And I had no idea what I was going to do. I thought I was going to join the Peace Corps. I just felt I had no context, no container, no teachers. I had no one to hold this big thing that was happening in my life, which was incredibly scary. And I quit my job with this. Answering this call to serve in some way. And I wasn't sure what that looked like. Funny enough, the day that happened, just to point you into the story was the same day. And this is a long, long story, but the same day, my ex, when I quit my job, people thought I was committing suicide at my company because I wrote this letter announcing that I had found a higher calling and I needed to leave. And people didn't understand what that was like on a Tuesday morning. And they had called my ex girlfriend, who was flying back to San Diego, where I lived at the time, and she broke down hearing about it. Cause they couldn't get in contact with me. I ended up talking to her. I end up picking her up at the airport. This whole experience of this love and this warmth just encompasses a car. And I'm like, oh, my gosh. This all brought us back together. I am gonna propose to the woman. I'm gonna propose to this woman. We were still friends. It's a whole other relational story. I go to the beach and sunset cliffs in San Diego. I get out of the car. I profess this. I have no ring. I profess this love to her. And she says yes. We find out a woman took a picture of it, and that woman ends up texting me those pictures later on the next day. And we're in some kind of conversation, and she invites me over to her house. I get invited, I go over to her house, and she lived in Sunset Cliffs, and she runs Ims San Diego. She's one of the people that ran Ims San Diego. And she gives me blue Jean Buddha. And she's like, hey, she kind of could sense I'm in this kind of crazy spiritual space. And I think she was someone who's trying to offer me direction or grounding. And so she gives me this book. I remember reading this book and going to one of the ims, a few of them, I think, in San Diego, some of the weekly sessions. And I forget what ended up happening. It was such a wild time in my life where I wasn't really steady on anything. I was trying to figure out what I did was I didn't. Wasn't. Didn't do anything safe for money. And I needed to figure that out, too. Which, again, brings us back to this conversation, one, even how we're having this conversation is because of that book. And it was fun to reread it and to put myself back in that time frame, which was like ten years ago, reading it, and why leaving a job so suddenly, having to figure out how to support myself while having this real intention that I wanted. Just. I'm looking at a lawn that I'm actually at my parents house right now because we have someone renting our place. And I remember laying on this lawn, coming home and just like, asking God to make something beautiful out of me. Like, I don't know what it's gonna look like. I've given all of myself to this path and show me how to use it, show me what it is. And I've found, in some ways, a real alignment in shifting. This is newer for me, Jess. This topic of the business side, this podcast is only a year old. Still freshly new in my career, I would say. And I feel like, I know I'm talking most of the time here, but having this conversation with you is. There's like something that I don't know that I want to offer in this world, because I see a lot of. There's a lot of stuff out there, especially in this kind of the spiritual coaching world, and I'm just trying to be of service in that way. So, coming back to why I started telling you that story, beyond just me reading your talk in that book, or your writings in that book, and us having this conversation because of that book, in some ways, is that. That was me. Like, just, I really wanted to figure out a way to put all of myself into something, and I also put myself in some financial distress to figure that out. So I've always held these two together, and one often meant, like, I wanted to figure out how to bring them together. So, long story to say, okay, the example of someone who doesn't, just doesn't like their job and I wanna leave. I liked my job, by the way. I quit a job that I liked. I was doing well, totally like my job. Um, as more for the audience than you, but someone who really wants to serve and does a, you know, training and curious your thoughts on the trainings that are, you know, out there. Obviously, Jack and Tara is more popular. Going the route of, you know, four years at IMS might not be for everyone. Like, that's a whole different sort of. And this is like, I'm curious to hear your thoughts on, like, the differences in that. Because obviously being on retreat for so long, like, there's just so much embodied realization that you're not maybe going to get like in the other way. Um, okay. So someone who's really wants to serve, really wants to share mindfulness from that space. And they just quit their job. No, they didn't quit their job. They just, they need to make, they want to make money so they can do it full time. Let's just keep it at that. All right. Long winded around roundabout.
Jessica: Okay. I'm going to actually just answer some other questions because I don't actually know. I mean, you could ask me some specific things, but I haven't even ever thought about
Jessica: meditation. I mean, I've thought about it as a business, but it's been, been completely organic and disorganized and not strategic. Just to say that in terms of like, what my livelihood being in this space. And really it was originally I worked in clean energy and climate policy in finance in DC, and then quit that to start and run because there's a whole crisis with our executive director to run inward bound, the teen meditation organization and the top programs and paid myself $30,000. Like, went from a job at the World bank to this role. So it was not a business decision and it was a nonprofit. And so, and then through that started teaching. And how I got into coaching is because I had a good friend who is a meditation teacher, and he did one on one mentoring with people weekly. And so I was like, oh, I'm going to try that. I was like, to see how to do it. And it was awesome. It was such an effective way for me to deepen and commit to my meditation practice. So we met every week for 30 minutes and it was just like, what's happening with your practice? What's happening with your mind? What did you do? What did you experience? And it had like a sort of progression. He's really trained in Shenzhen Yang stuff style meditation, if people know that. And he had a certain like, series of meditations to do along and he that some were heart practices and then concentration insight practices. And it was, it was so great. I felt like my, I was getting so much more clarity in my mind and in my meditation practice had a much deeper sense of, like, when I sit down, what am I doing? Like, what's the purpose of sitting here and meditating? So that was super, super helpful. And I was like, this is it. Everyone needs this. If you're serious about meditation, we need mentors. Like this structure of a weekly. That's amazing. But also, if it's twice a month or once a month, that would be great. But just someone who also a meditation teacher who knows your mind and life circumstances so that they can tell you, can advise, you know, really, you need to cultivate a little bit more concentration based on your conditioning and what you've told me about your practice. I think you should, like, do this kind of concentration practice, or you need to do a lot more self compassion. Here's some practices for that. And I love that George had this library of meditation. His name's George Haas. He's awesome. Metagroup.org dot really recommend him. He's awesome. He had a library of meditation. So he could say, like, do these meditations over here, those over there. I loved it. I was like, this is it. This is the thing. Everyone needs this. So. And also, what I would find as I taught retreats was that people would come up afterwards and say, like, because often when you're teaching a retreat, you say things like, oh, well, my teacher said such and such, or my teacher did such. You know, told me to do such and such. And everyone was like, well, how do I get a teacher who's going to be able to tell me what to do with my meditation practice? And unfortunately, that's really hard to find because you go on. When we teach these meditation retreats, there's three or four teachers and 100 students at the Insight meditation society. We do, though maybe I teach a couple a year, but the same one once a year. So people might come back over and over again, but I don't know. And I meet with them for 15 minutes in an interview structure on the retreat. So I don't know this person, I don't know their life, I don't know their mind, I don't know their practice, and I'm not following it and tracking it. And so many people would come up and say, like, would you be my teacher? Or, how do I find a teacher? And that's how then I started. It's kind of part of the way that I started, like, meeting with people one on one and also tried to 10% happier, worked with them to help them set up a coaching that would be, like, in the style. This guy, George Haas, that's very long window. But I'm just saying that that's like, I really think if you're serious about your meditation practice and you find a meditation teacher that you connect with, so this is going on the other side, that you should meet with them and have them support you in meditation. So then if you want to be a meditation coach, you should go do a ton of meditation retreat get, if you can or really commit to your practice, because what you can offer people is both your, like, embodied realization, but also your depth and breadth of understanding of techniques of meditation and their outcomes. Also, like, as much psychological understanding as you can, because it's. There's such an overlap there to kind of get a sense of, like, this kind of mental makeup probably needs more of this kind of practice. And the only way that you're going to develop that is, like, you really diving deep into, like, your own personal course of study and practice and really recommend retreats if you can do it. So that's some stuff to share about that. And there's certainly trainings. I'm happy to talk about different perspectives on trainings and how those function.
Lou: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I would love to hear about that. And I also want to just keep the thread of this exploration around the money piece, because I think that's the. That seems still the. That's what kind of opened with. And I think, and I'm gonna say it, but then, like, I can't quite remember exactly the point. I have an essence of what the point was. But have you read Ken Wilbur's post called write bucks?
Jessica: No.
Lou: Yeah. Do you know if you're familiar with Ken Wilbur? So he wrote, and I guess this depends on your feelings towards Ken Wilbur, but he wrote a post around called write bucks and the dharma of money and where it started in the context that the dharma started and where it's at now in relation to the world that we live in. And he kind of pointed out, basically, hey, it's not this time in this area of the world. We're at this time in this area in the world. And I guess, in essence, was making a point to the charging for teaching, which I know is a big thing thing in the buddhist world. It was making his point of like, hey, maybe we do this another way. And obviously, you come from the background of that. So not by any means trying to say that that's the right thing or the wrong thing, but it was just another perspective on this conversation that we're having.
Jessica: Let me say a few things about that. I said that I'm on multiple lines. One thing to share, too, is the Buddha and Buddhism. We have Buddhism today because there are laypeople working, making a ton of money, and there's so all of the stories of sutas, of the Buddha. He's in the olive grove of some what would now be a billionaire being fed and hanging out there for the three month rainy season. So there's tons of stories about really wealthy people supporting the Buddha in the Suttas. So just to kind of give some context, that's how the. The dharma spread was, because very wealthy and also not so wealthy people fed, clothed, housed, cared for, sheltered the Buddha. And then there's all these other stories of. And they're very, like, treated with a lot of deep respect and both male and female benefactors of the Buddha. And then there's, like, the Ashoka is this Buddha's king who really spread it and was supposed to be the very generous and wise and super wealthy, powerful king who spread Buddhism around India and beyond, and then the kings who brought them to Tibet. So just like sometimes I wonder, there sometimes feels like a little bit of an anti money aspect of the way we talk about money, at least in the Theravadan tradition. And so I just want to say, like, that's not in the suttas. Exactly. In that same way. And that might be like, carryover from Judeo christian lineage instead of actually coming from that tradition.
Lou: Yeah, well, it's interesting. And I'm just. This is my. These are my curiosities. So I'm grateful for this conversation with you to explore it because I do hear that similar to, I don't know if, you know, like Paramahansa Yogananda and he had a benefactor that, like, you know, huge, like, I forget exactly whose background, but huge benefactor that supported the whole movement. Right. So that's when I talked about before, there feels like you can, you know, the wealth or money is needed and supported and comes and it's all, you know, the right people are finding it. So I understand there's a natural unfolding here, and I'm not trying to. To try to overcompensate that. That's by no means like what this is about. And my style of coaching is more on the contemplative side, I think. Like you, I love how you call yourself a contemplative coach, which is trying to allow that natural unfolding to come through. But it seems like in the buddhist world, it's like, you can be wealthy and support us, but you can't be wealthy through meditation.
Jessica: Yeah.
Lou: You know what I mean? Like this. Great. We'll take all the wealth, take your donations, but this can't be the way that you make wealth and spread it with us. Right. That's where I'm like, it's interesting. I don't know.
Jessica: Yeah, that is definitely accurate. But then I'm also thinking about, like, in what I've done a fair amount of tibetan practice as well, since that kind of early, like, my main lineage is from the Theravada and buddhist tradition. And they're, it's different. You pay, teachers are paid. It's not, it's not the same. So there's like more comfort with payment, it seems like, in that structure. But still, you don't see wealthy monastics. Like, that's not, it's not elevated. That's not what you're supposed to do. Exactly. You're not supposed to get rich by teaching meditation. So, yeah, so there's something in that. And so really what it comes back to, there's two things for me, I really think about skillful means, and skillful means is this concept that mostly, that I've heard mostly coming out of the tibetan tradition. But it's all over the early suttas and the early buddhist teachings. The Buddha was teaching, whenever he was teaching, he was teaching to the person. Like, this person's a farmer, this person's a mother. This person is,
Jessica: what's the word? Anyway? Any profession, it didn't really matter. He would teach to them, and he would give these metaphors and give them specific instruction that was about, that they could hear based on where they were coming from. And so that's like this idea of skillful means. Like, he wasn't going to, everyone being like, great, sit down, be still, follow your breath, and then you'll get enlightened. Like, that is not at all what the Buddha taught. He taught. There's so many examples of this, like acrobats and things, like, okay, pay attention to your own balance on acrobat. So what I see happening, like, what you might be doing and some of the other folks that I'm sort of getting connected in, with in this interesting way and particularly in tech right now, is like, it's a skillful means, a business world. People who have power and money in the world do business. And so having that perspective and teaching within that world and context is a skillful means to help them access the dharma and enjoying, like, come along. So you need to be able to speak also. But it was really adamant about using the vernacular, the language of the people that you're teaching to and understanding them. So I actually love that there's people like you who have been entrepreneurs or in business and like Kay, who are getting into this space and really promoting these kinds of practices and meditation. And so that's the first point. I love it. The second point is that I just really want, what matters so much is the intention and for you all to keep staying connected to the heart of your intention. And I love that you started us out. Before we start this podcast, what's our intention? Why are we having this conversation and what's our aspiration for it? So the more that you can keep connecting to that and having people in your life that help you connect to that, it's going to keep you going in that right direction.
Lou: I feel. Important thing mentioned. Hey, and I'm a fan if any of you, and I feel comfortable speaking about this, obviously, you don't have to go into details of sessions, but he wrote on his newsletter, you're his coach, and you mentioned a session or something that he had with you. And so Kay is a former, I think, Wall Streeter, made a bunch of money and had his shift into a different lifestyle and runs an amazing newsletter called Rad Reads. I think I've recommended it to people before. It's an amazing newsletter. And this is where I navigate to these worlds of having the meditation world, but then also really with an energy that I can't quite. I don't want to say I can't quite control. I'm sure you have feedback from me on that, but I always would make a joke, like, I'm an ambitious meditation teacher. Like, can you hold those two? Or I'm an ambitious baby. Like, I have the same. Go ahead. Yeah.
Jessica: To talk about that. Do you know Dan Harris and 10%?
Lou: Yeah, yeah, of course.
Jessica: Okay, so a few things about that. So Dan is so ambitious. He's so ambitious, and he's been really successful. One thing that I've always found so awesome is Joseph Goldstein, who's really, like the grandfather with Sharon Salzburg of the Insight Meditation Society. And so much of what we know of mindfulness is like, you can directly track it back to Joseph and his teaching, his practice, and everything he's done. And he's one of my teachers. He is, like, very tight with Dan, loves Dan, totally supports him. He was one of the first people that went on the app with Dan. And it's an app that you pay for that's ostensibly secular. And so that has always been like, wow, okay, Joseph. But everything he teaches is in a donna context, a donation context. So that's one thing. And then Dan is always talking about, can you meditate and still be. And does that work? And he's totally ambitious. And also, he has transformed so much. Like, it's so authentic, his practice and what he's doing with his life. It's 100,000% authentic. His commitment to practice and transformation and awakening and service. And also, he wants to be successful. And I sometimes think about it, it's like, so I work because I worked on the app, I teach on the app. I worked with a company. So many of my students, people come to me through that app, and these are beautiful. I mean, everyone is beautiful, actually. But I can see, like, they're beautiful qualities.
Lou: Casey didn't know. Yes, casey didn't know.
Jessica: Everyone is true. And just the bottom line, we just can't see sometimes. Yes, but people's beautiful qualities are, like, more evident to me when I'm working with them. And I'm just, like, so happy. They never would have gone to the insight meditation society. They never would have gone there. They never would have found me. If dan wasn't super ambitious along with the co founders, these two guys who are awesome, ben and derek, like, you, probably around the same age, tech guys, started this app, they never would have found this practice and then never would have found me and gone deeper. Now they're doing retreats without Dan and their ambition to make this successful company, that's going to have an impact. And, like, so I just, like, I'm like, there's beautiful. There's nothing wrong with that. It's awesome. And I regularly am, like, Dan, I hope you recognize, like, the impact that you're having through. Sometimes I think the universe. I don't even. This isn't very buddhist language, but, like, I really believe uses our ego, that energy. Like, I just totally trust it. It's like, great. Just. But, like, use my ego for the. This deeper intention and keep connecting to that intention.
Lou: I believe that 100%. And I'm a user and I really appreciate many different typing systems, but the enneagm. I don't know if you're familiar with the enneagram, but I'm a. I'm a type three, which is. Which is the achiever. So it's like. And that's where we could also go astray. Right. But if we're aware that, yes, we like that we're made up in this way, whatever you're listening or whatever your type is, that you're made up in this way 100% that the ego, what are our natural inclinations gone unchecked would probably can do some harm for sure. Like, any of us gone unchecked probably could do some harm without understanding it or knowing it. But having. Yeah. Using. Using that for. For benefit. Right. To. But not being attached to it. Right. That's the biggest thing I think is, like, getting for you what's that.
Jessica: That's the pain point. It's like, that's where you get the rope burn. But yes, they'll be a huge service.
Lou: Yeah. So this. You mentioned how I maybe can sense the answer, but you mentioned how you're 10% happier. I was surprised how much I loved 10% happier. I think, Dan, I can be a mix of. I don't know how to describe. I guess I've gotten more. I'm a little. I'm definitely. I can be woo. I'm a little less woo than I was in some ways. I definitely get down with, I can definitely understand. There's a lot of stuff that we don't understand. And so knowing just Dan, I didn't think I'd resonate with Dan's story because he feels very so cut off from any of the woo in some ways. But that book was such a good. For anyone that hasn't read, if you're in meditation space and you haven't read 10% happier, highly recommend reading that book. And I guess the question was, because you've also done work with inward bound and in schools and youth, and I actually had a men, we might not be able to get to this, but I had my mentor in youth mindfulness, shared some questions with me for you, but what are your thoughts of the dE. For, I guess in your lineage, it would be like the desacralization of the teachings where we're just kind of stripping away. And I personally think we could use a little bit more sacredness in this country, in this world. But I get that it's not going to for everyone, but, yeah. What are your thoughts on just the. I know one tibetan teacher who calls it mcmindfulness. The mcmindfulness of let's just strip everything down and make it this thing. You kind of spoke to it a little bit, maybe with the 10% happier app, but, yeah, maybe. Any other thoughts on it?
Jessica: Okay, so one thing that I haven't said so far that feels super important about someone teaching, the other aspect is that there's like, especially if you're going to be secular, you're going to teach in a secular. So it's your intention and your own embodied realization. What has been the transformation for you? And then ideally, you've got a line back to the highest realization person that you know you've got. There's a line. That's what the. For me, what the power of a lineage is that there's a line back. Like, I've got a line to Joseph. So I could be like, cool. We practice a lot together. You're doing awesome. You should go do this for treat with Joseph or listen to this talk like he, you know, the friends who are farther along in terms of their realization, and then all of the teachers and masters before him, his teachers and masters that are available in their books and their teaching. And so that people can find that meditation just isn't about, like, I feel a little bit more peaceful today. I can manage. That is great. And also, there's a depth of freedom and connection that is beyond what you could even imagine. That is actually possible if you keep going, if you follow it. So you need to keep that line to the full realization, is my perspective. And that realization is in all of the traditions. I just know it connected through Buddhism. But christian, you talked about some of your teachers is there. So keeping that connection like you can direct people know how to find it through you, basically,
Jessica: that was the biggest thing. So otherwise, in terms of secular, I've been in that conversation so intensely because the way that we worked with youth and in schools was always secular because we started out in southwest Virginia, which is a very christian area. And so parents would never send their kid to a buddhist meditation camp, but they would send their kids to this, like, social emotional health meditation camp. So we really held it as a non buddhist space. And then all the teaching we did in schools, of course, had to be secular, but all of our teachers were all trained in the same particular lineage. So I'm really totally comfortable with it. At the same time, my husband, and this is a huge space for me, it's been. I lived in that world for a long time. My husband is the director of mindfulness at a boarding school. He created that role. He actually just stepped out of it, and they're hiring. So if someone wants a job teaching meditation, you could go be a director of mindfulness at the Middlesex school in Concord, Massachusetts. I'll just put that out there. They're like, kind of higher and so full time, you can get on campus housing benefits and teach adolescents meditation, mindfulness. That's a great job. That's a very good job if you want a job, if you like youth. Anyway, so he created that role, and then it's even endowed now. He fundraised for that, so we'll keep going. And what he found, he would always interview these kids, or they did fill out surveys. Something like 70% of them said that mindfulness became their spiritual practice. So even though. And he's not a religious person really at all, it really had a deeply spiritual aspect for them, even though he's teaching in a totally secular way. So I think it becomes that as long as that, as long as you are embodying that and you have that connection to the sacred. So you have to hold that as the teacher even though you might not be explicitly teaching it.
Lou: That's an, that's important and makes me, yeah, continue curious. Like, I wish I had. I don't know. I've wanted it ever since I started the journey. Like, just like I want, just show me my teacher. Right. The teacher is ready. Like the student appears, like, make it be obvious. Make it be obvious. Like just, I just want to, just one person that can just be my teacher and send me, bring me to the promised land. And it just, for whatever reason, whether it's my lack of humility, whether it's, you know, my, whatever, I don't, who knows why. It just hasn't like been like, oh, it's this, it just hasn't.
Jessica: A gift. So it might not be anything wrong with you, Lou. It could be that because you have a multi lineage experience and like, you know, I don't, I know of Richard Rohrer and I know of Cynthia Burgo, but I don't actually know what they do. I've never practiced with them because I'm have this practice and I'm spent time in different buddhist traditions. But that's a gift that you have to have had different.
Lou: Yeah, I see, I see that. I feel that and, but when you want to hear, you say like, okay, who can I, can I like call Joseph Goldstein on the phone? Probably wouldn't answer, but, you know, maybe an email. But it is inspiring to just as a reminder of how much your practice and, or your inner work modality doesn't have to be meditation. There's other maybe I personally, I don't know, think meditation can bring about. It can have, you could obviously speak to this better, but I think it's the path to some sort of different embodied state. I think there's other places where you can maybe experience states like the psychedelic revolution. Obviously I know very different experiences than being in a meditation retreat, in those experiences. But having the lineage aspect is something I've been thinking about for years. Always there is, you know, they talk about transmission and I think that's, you know, if you're not in the transmission, you're not receiving, you know, the energy of, of that lineage. So, um, I guess, you know, we're, I don't want everyone to be respectful of, of our time. Yeah.
Jessica: Even as you're saying, like, this is me and like being of multiple minds.
Lou: Say that one more time.
Jessica: There's one more thing I want to say about that. Um, though. And where again, it's like multiple perspectives, and I'm okay with that. So to be holding, like, various strong opinions, that might seem paradoxical, but the teaching is, this is it. This is you. This is the nature. This is the nature of life in your awareness and every being's awareness. So you are in the transmission because there's nowhere else to be.
Lou: I love it.
Jessica: Yeah. It's just your birthright.
Lou: I love that so much. How beautiful. Well, Jess, I really appreciate you leaning in and this is. And having, I would say, braver conversation, like, speaking to the hesitation coming into this. You know, we have. I'm happy to go a couple minutes over if there's more that you have to share, but I'll just leave just one more, you know, one more. Just invitation. If there's something around this topic that you feel important to get out to an audience of probably pretty, you know, people that are trying to, you know, make a living or make money doing something in the meditation world. And I. For me, I've said this on this podcast many times, meditation is. Is a medium. Like it. For me, it's been a medium. When I think of why I'm really here, it's to inspire other people. And meditation has been the medium that I've been fortunate to be able to inspire. And so that's kind of how I approach it. And so there might be other people on here with similar approachings that aren't, you know, that aren't in, you know, I know a bunch of people actually, that listen to that have taken like a Jack and Tara's two year training and are in that, you know, bringing mindfulness in that way. But yeah, anything around the, you know, the. Anything also that's come up or has helped you realize or think about around the business, you know, the business side or money side that we've kind of started this with. I know I'm asking ten questions and meandering, so take. Sorry about that.
Jessica: Yeah, I guess I'll say again, I'm just going to reiterate the sense of intention and having, and having people in your life who you trust, who give you feedback and kind of can, like, call you in to keep exploring that motivation and intention and then, like, it doesn't matter, you can make tons and tons of money. I mean, all of the work that I've done in terms of the teen programs has been through donation. And some of the most beautiful people I know are these extremely wealthy meditators who then have given to support the work that I get to do. And so, yeah, I don't like, there's a certain power and beauty in having money, just like you've talked about of being able to offer and donate and support beautiful things in the world. And why one of my other teachers, like, why would you leave all the money for, like, people that you don't like their values? Why don't we people who have the values you, like, make more money? So that. Because that's power in our society. So it's really just like, keep coming back and connecting it with your heart and intention and trusting that. And then your practice, your practice practice. And if you can find a teacher, you know, even someone that's just like, we call them Kalyana Mitta, a friend on the path who might be a little farther along that you can be meeting with, like, meeting with George or someone that can just be helping. You can give it a structure and the support. Yeah.
Lou: Beautiful.
Jessica: I want to say one more thing, though. I didn't get to promote. The one thing I want to promote. Is that okay, can I promote something?
Lou: Of course. Yeah.
Jessica: Okay. Because we didn't talk.
Lou: No promotions on the arm. Business, meditation. No, no, you can. We were keeping this pure that way.
Jessica: It's really egregious. It's a program called the contemplative semester. The contemplative semester. So you can look it up. Contemplative semester.org dot. It's a new program that a group of friends and I are creating for college age students. So 18 to 25 year olds. It's a full semester in the fall. So September we start our first one. It's three and a half months. So that you can't apply now. It's full. But our aspiration now is to keep going 2025. So, like, check it out. If you have. If you are in that age range, 18 to 25. If you have a child in that age range, it's gonna be amazing. So you can check it out. Joseph will be a guest teacher, and Sharon. And Sharon Sellsberg. And they get college credit through Naropa. So you can come to. It's in Vermont at this former college campus.
Lou: So incredible. I just have to make a comment of, like, the mic drop moment of that promotion. It's like, we're having this thing. It's starting September. It's full. You can't join. But it's.
Jessica: Which.
Lou: It's amazing. No, that makes people want it more. It's like, oh, this is actually. Yeah, people are, you know, people come here trying to promote their, like, programs, and they're, like, desperate. Like, yeah, well, you come in like, you actually can't join. But no, just kidding. That was amazing. And what an opportunity. Like, seriously, like, incredible opportunity. If I, uh, if I was a different person in college, that would be. That would be very unique. We didn't get a chance to talk about any of that because I'm glad we talked about this stuff. But, yeah, I know that was a big part of you. Your story of having kind of, you know, in college, you know, taking that time and meditating. And so to offer that back, you know, parents that are listening or young college students that are listening, I don't know how many there are, but please, you know, share. Share that for sure.
Jessica: Please. Thank you. Thank you.
Lou: And also, if you are listening and you're looking for a meditation teacher or some support or maybe a coach, I think Jess also offers one on one sessions. So if this resonated for you and you want to go deeper and learn and be with a teacher with a whole lot more experience than I have, please go check out Jess's site.
Jessica: Great. Jessicamoring.org. my website. Yeah.
Lou: All right. Thanks, friends. We'll see you on the next episode.