Navigating Ego, Desire, and the Creative Path w/ Charles Freligh
In this episode, we dive into a deep and honest conversation with Charles Freligh about creativity, identity, and the tension between ambition and letting go. We explore the paradox of success, the role of ego in our creative pursuits, and how the labels we give ourselves shape our work. Charles shares what he’s learned from writing, teaching, and creating his Dao Te Ching Mastery course—plus why the most meaningful work often comes when we stop trying to force it.
Key Takeaways:
The unexpected truth about success—why achieving a big goal often feels different than we imagine.
How to know if you're resisting your true calling—and why that resistance might be a clue.
The surprising link between identity and creativity—and how the words we use to describe ourselves shape what we create.
The two types of desire—one leads to suffering, the other to deep fulfillment (and how to tell the difference).
What actually makes a creative project take off—Charles shares the key insights behind his most successful work.
GIFT FOR YOU
If you’re a meditation teacher or coach who wants to create unique meditations people listen to over and over again, enroll in my free course Meditation Script Mastery
Music Credit: Nova by River Roots - https://www.youtube.com/riverroots
Podcast Transcript
Lou: Hello there, dear listeners. Welcome to another episode of the art and Business of meditation podcast. And in our little series of having old guests on again, Charles is another one. Charles actually might be the first person I had on the podcast. When it was the Awakening to purpose podcast, it was actually a recording of a book launch talk conversation that we did when Charles launched his book the Will to do Nothing back in 2022. That became part of my podcast, I think in 2023. And I'm lucky that I get to call Charles a friend and we get to have another more dialed in conversation speaking to teachers and guides like you. So, Charles, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast again.
Charles: Yeah, fun to be back in this this way. I'm excited to see what comes up. It's cool too that we recently got to meet in person for the first time. So, yeah, thanks for having me back.
Lou: Yeah, yeah. That was really special to. To meet your wife. I'll get to meet Maslow, I'm sure soon. At some point, maybe starting there. Since the last time you talked, we talked, you had published your first book and what's unfolded in the time since? How is. How is publishing your first book been? Like, what is it what you thought it would be? Is it, you know, are you have hopes for it or how are you thinking about that now? A little over 22 years past that.
Charles: Time question
Charles: didn't many expectations for the book?
Lou: Charles, I'm gonna pause you a second because I think there's some Internet. I don't know if it's me or you. Let's. Let's resync and then.
Charles: Can you hear me now?
Lou: I can hear you, but your, Your, your video is a little delayed. How about. Let's try now? Can you. Are you. Are you. Am I synced up with you?
Charles: You are, yeah.
Lou: Okay, so all right, now you're good. Okay, answer the question. Starting now?
Charles: Yeah, sure. So, yeah, I can. I don't know that I had many expectations going into it. It was pretty pure in its intention. I think I just had a certain, like, inspiration for creating this project. Initially based on just the title phrase was the first thing that came to me in a certain moment. And then it kind of fleshed itself out as to what the project was. So I'd say that it was mainly complete just in bringing it to tangible form. I would say maybe, maybe. You know, I imagine in any sort of creative pursuit or project, the ego gets involved one way or another. And so I'd say my expectations, maybe that happened internally in the creation of the project as it relates to the receiving of the book, or it may be achieving some sort of a claim or something like that, or the number of people that be buying it was less than what I maybe wished it would be, which I imagine probably anybody that writes a book might have some dream, whether they admit it or not, of it becoming this like, huge success somehow. So I would say, you know, that was humbling in a way. Although there's, there's. I'm amazed that the number of people that have my book have this book. I would say it would be complete even if, like, nobody had it or just a handful of people had it. So in a certain way it was like totally complete. But then in another way, you know, maybe less than I expected, which has created a new maybe perspective. As I move into this next book. I'm almost done with the my second book now that I'm working on, and I think even more so I've released any sort of expectation or even really concern about the reader in certain ways and just made it. Although I'm happy with the first one being a pure project, I would say this one may be even more so. So I don't know if that answers your question, but there's a couple things that stand out to me as it relates to that project. In particular.
Lou: It feels like you have to live the essence of that book. The will to do nothing, the will to actually just not be focused on how much it's going to do or how much it's going to sell, but actually just allowing what it wants to be, doing it for its own sake, allowing what it wants to be to unfold. And I think I want to ask you about this too, because it was something that, that I know at least. Me, Darius and Jessica, we're all in little groups, so it's insider language for those that are listening. Darius Bashar and Jessica Amos. I talk about for me, when I wrote my first book, and I still have this dream and I think it's like a fun North Star, regardless of if it would ever come to fruition, but the dream of being on Oprah's couch. And I know I've heard so many people in this world want that dream, but when I mentioned I was putting that into some copy that I was working on, and both you and Saqib Sakib Rizvi said like, oh, that didn't resonate with me. Like, that's not a dream for you all. And I'd just be curious to hear you if there's anything more to say about that, but what does critically acclaimed author look like for you then, if it's not Oprah's couch?
Charles: Yeah, that's a good question too. There's probably something there about, and I'm sure ego is involved on some level here too, but some identification with like, under the radar kind of stuff or like, maybe I might be inclined to not like something if it's incredibly popular or maybe have an aversion to it or think that that's probably not really art or something like that, which I can acknowledge is my own, like, a bias. Like, I, I, I didn't read Eckhart Tolle or Tolle for a long time because he's like this incredibly popular figure. And I'm sure there are other people like that still that I haven't. I've like, avoided being exposed to their stuff just because it's so popular and like, everybody references it. But that also means that it's of a certain value or a certain quality at a certain point. I had heard Eckhart in particular reference just enough times where I was like, just, you should have at least read this. And I really liked, I've read a couple of his books now, and I really like what he has to say. So I think that's probably a part of it for me and maybe also attached to my. I think my deepest desire is to be as pure of an artist, quote unquote, as possible. And so maybe I just have a vision of like, the real artist, you know, wouldn't be the one that is on Oprah's couch or. But again, that's not necessarily true. But there's some story, I think that's, that's there for me. But I can say it isn't something that I aspire to or, or wish for. And at the same time, if that happened, of course I would be like, so happy. So maybe, maybe I'm also protecting myself in that way by saying that I don't want that because it's less of a letdown that it's just not a.
Lou: Reality you speak to. I'm curious if you've ever done any research on the Enneagram, but what you're saying is so typical fixation for the Enneagram 4, which is like the individualist. Individualist. And you kind of defined the, the Enneagram four in a sentence. And I have a friend who's an enneagram4 and she would say the same thing that would say like once for everyone. It's automatically saying it's not for me. Like, the, once you're saying, like, this is the popular thing, like, that is my sign that I'm going the other way. And so, um, I, I, I totally understand that. And that would, that would make a lot of sense. So, so Oprah, Charles would is not available. So you can call me or Darius or. No, I'm just kidding. Um, Charles, I, you know, since we've done a, a podcast before, and also when I do podcasts with, with friends that we're kind of exploring, like, it's fun to actually not do the preparation that I typically do. But I, I was thinking, I was like, well, what's my introduction for Charles? Which we didn't do. Like, what do I say he is? Or how do I define him? And so I just decided to Google search your name and just see what comes up first. And Charles Frei underneath that is musical artist. And I don't know if it's because you have some things on Spotify or I don't know where that generates from. And then if you go to maybe an overview, I think this is maybe coming from your book where explains obtaining your PhD in clinical psychology, years of experience working therapeutically with individuals and groups. His work is rooted in the healing impact of presence. But honestly, I think artist, from what I experience of you, really hits more on top of it. So how are you defining. And I know this is a paradox to define yourself, and I know you try to not define yourself in some lenses, but how are you saying or defining or talking about what you're doing nowadays? Or is it changing? Is it evolving?
Charles: Yeah, that's really cool too, that, that's what came up. That makes me happy. I'd imagine there is, yeah, probably related to me having content on Spotify, I would guess, or on the music streaming platforms. And then. So this maybe relates to your question of, like, the evolution of how I maybe identify myself professionally or otherwise at a certain maybe. I've shared this story with you before, but there, I remember one time I was sitting in my car and I was listening to. It is a, I think it's a Mozart music piece. I can't remember the name of it. Mozart, a Bach, one of those two. But it was like I was in a period of listening to this particular piece a lot, and it just has this really kind of strong flourish and crescendo. Like it can get me into this sort of emotional feeling. And I was listening to it in the car and I remember just being really struck by an internal phrase like, I am an artist. And that feeling really, really true and closer than any other, like, word that I have used in the past to describe myself. Because I would. All the other words that I might have used never really resonated. It's just like, this is what I'm doing. Or, you know, I'm a. I have my PhD in clinical psychology, but I was never like, I was pursuing a certain thing, but it never really felt personally meaningful to me or important to me to be like a doctoral student or a psychologist even, or anything like that. That feels way more distant. Um, although I can play those roles, like, it feels pretty distant to who I actually am. And maybe I felt like who I really am, maybe it couldn't match up with how I would identify professionally or in terms of my quote, unquote career. But I think that word fits the best, even though it's a bit. It's kind of vague, like, what do you mean by that? And it begs description. But it's kind of nice to give myself permission to not have to give a description because I can certainly use other words that people can understand. I guess that's an art form too. But if I was to call myself therapist, it doesn't feel right, even though I, like, I play that kind of role. So, yeah, artists became a thing several years ago. And then I would say, even though this is probably another one of those enneagram4things, although I hadn't. I'm not aware of that. But it sound. Does sound like me, like the term manifestation. I have some aversion to that because it is. It's such like a popular phenomenon. And I maybe have some aversion to my understanding of what it might mean of like, trying to get something like. Like manifest a million dollars or something like that. But I would say it seems like maybe something like manifestation has been happening with this artist label. At a certain point, I was kind of just internally agreeing with that. Like, yeah, I am an artist and I don't even need proof for it, but that's just what I am. And then at a certain point, I decided to make it like the top thing on my website, where, like, on my website It's Charles Freely, PhD, which is another label role thing, although it's also a door opener, so I do use it. But then below that, I have a couple titles of, like, these are things that I do. Individual guide. That's kind of my term for therapist, writer, a couple other things. And at a certain point I was like, I would like to put artist as the first thing and just something about that felt kind of meaningful to me, even though it just. It just takes. I think it takes the person to my Instagram page where I, like, put some art sometimes or just things randomly. And I have maybe a couple hundred followers on there. But that felt meaningful to me to do that. And I think I've done a variety of. I started taking a painting class, and I've been taking those pretty consistently. Drawing. Drawing as well and painting. And like, I've putting. Been putting energy, I guess, into this identity as artist. And then I feel like it's just kind of been happening that I increasingly am an artist or like it's just kind of making its way tangibly into my life and into my work. It was nice. I had an initial consultation with a client maybe a month ago, and I think because of this, like, I put Artist as the first title on my website, and maybe you can, like, see in my space there's some art stuff. When they came on, they were like, yeah, I was drawn to you because you're an artist, too. And I was like, oh, that felt, like, internally, like, that felt really nice, like, for you to see me as that. Or maybe there's something about my identifying as that that has been showing, like, externally. So, yeah, artist is the closest that I can say, although I probably still wouldn't say that if I was at a, you know, a party or something and someone asked me what I do. Although maybe I should just be like, artist, and they could ask further if they wanted to. But, yeah, something about artists just feels, even though, again, like, I do resist labels because ultimately they can't capture the truth, but you can use them to try to get close to it. So I think for me, artists just feels the closest to whatever it is that I'm doing here.
Lou: I'd love to hear how you might help someone come to. If it is something you could help someone with. Because when you're saying this, I'm reflecting on my own experiences with. I would say maybe the more so writer, artist does really resonate. This is the art and business of meditation. I consider myself a meditation artist in many ways, as we've talked about before. But there's something about writer and speaker where I've just had moments of like, yes, this is what I'm here to do in some. In some sense, something with words, something with voice, something with language that just feels so true. And sometimes when I'm not, I notice myself when I'm. And. And it's been sometimes the balance and interesting flex of this podcast is when I, I also have a part of me that feels. And is it. There's a mix of ego. I've, I know I've been so. And you can get so ego swept up into the term entrepreneur. Like it's so, it's so aggrandizing and self aggrandizing in some ways. It's so like has an. And it's empowering. Like, okay, I am, you know, I create businesses or I create, you know, which creates resources, which creates money, which, which is enter, which is a lot of energy. So, you know, I come from a line, at least in my one side of my family of, of small business owners, entrepreneurs and in a certain blue collar sense. And so like I really resonate with that too. But I think when I'm really feeling in spirit and inspired, it is more in that kind of writer, speaker, creator sort of sense. And so I'm always just balancing like, you know, I run a mastermind group that's more business focused. But how do I make, how do I bring that essence to this? Right? How do I bring. What does that look like? That's different because it's not a traditional business mastermind, it's not a traditional business group. People are in there not because necessarily they're getting business advice, although that comes from it, but there's an essence and an energy that is creative. So all that to say, if someone's listening to this, that's still trying to figure out what is that thing, what is that word? Because words are limiting and they can be powerful and they can help us focus, they can help us ground, they can help us manifest in some ways. Like to, in order to write my book, I had to see myself as a writer. Like, and, and, and all I had to do to be a writer was actually just write. And all I had to do to be an author was to publish that thing. And so you know that those words, when embodied right, can really help things come into fruition, which is maybe what you're kind of noting at. And I have, I have similar judgments towards how manifestation is used too, as, as you. So I understand the, the energy around that. But I'm curious if there's anything that you would, you know, ideas that come to me and then I'll maybe that'll help you think of it. If ideas that come to me would be like, you know, meditating on those words and just seeing how they resonate inside of you and trying on different things and listening. I don't know, it sounds like you just had A moment of like this, this came through. And so maybe it's hard to necessarily create that for someone, but it reminds.
Charles: Me of something I did with a client one time where they were trying to get kind of clear on what it is they actually do or how they identify at the core of everything because they do a couple of different things professionally. But yeah, we did just sort of like a. I like using imagery or just kind of whatever imagery might come to you as you think about something, know, using words, but maybe allowing words to exist in like a spatial or just imagery based space in your mind. And I mean this is kind of simple and probably is just like a, a technique that people use. But we were envisioning like a web extending out from, or just like circles extending out from a central circle. Like there's a circle in the very center of, of your being and then there are circles that expand outward. And we were trying to get like, get a sense of what is it that's in the very center circle. And it was kind of cool for him because what came up in the center, it was more of just a way of being as opposed to a particular label or you know, artist was kind of both, but it's, it's. That's more like a specific kind of role. But what came up for him that I thought was quite nice was explorer. And like that felt the most true to him. And then he's does, he's like in consulting and he also does coaching and there's a variety of different, you know, professional things that he does. But he felt like, you know, at the very center was explorer. And he was like, yeah, that feels right because there's something cool about too. It's like you're just. The body can tell you if the word is right or if it gets like close or closest to who you actually are. So that could be something. It's like what is that word? With no limitations whatsoever. And maybe it's even something like symbolic or that doesn't even have to necessarily make sense. It could be a color or something like that. Just like that's it. That the center of everything. That's what I feel like. And then that can inform maybe the different roles you play. And it could be interesting even if someone did this on paper. Like there's something in the center. And then, yeah, this role that I play is like kind of out here. This one's really close to it. This like they're all just. And maybe this one feels like it's on the right side. This feels like, it's on the left side or. Or this one's even outside of all the circles, but it's still something that I do. So that could be one that I think of. Yeah.
Lou: Amazing. It's simple and just easy, I think, for everyone listening to just, like, grasp. And as you were saying it, it was a reminder for me of, like, wait a second, Lou. No, no, you're not. It's not writer, speaker, teacher, leader. It's really never been teacher, to be honest. But writer, speaker, whatever. Whatever that I just said before. But as I'm. You're helping me crystallize how they all fit together with what I'm doing right now. And that is my. My word is like, inspirador, like. Or inspire. Like, I'm here through what I'm doing to inspire. Whether that's podcast host, whether that's the mastermind, whether that's whatever I'm doing, whatever flavor it ends up taking at this juncture in time, and I'm sure it'll continue to unfold as. As. As we all do, that it's to inspire, right? To help. To. To help someone see something of themselves, to help someone, you know, remind them something of themselves, of what could be motivating or connective or insightful for them to take on in their journey. So thanks for just reminding me of that word of, like. No, no. That's what I hope to do on this podcast. And I been fortunate. I been getting some messages because I asked for. Because I asked for it on a recent podcast episode of like, hey, is anyone listening? And I've gotten some really beautiful messages that remind me of, like, that intention of. No, no. This is inspiring teachers and guides out there to do their work with a greater. To just one. Just do their work and hopefully to do it with a greater love and intention and integrity. So thanks for. Thanks for clarifying that for me.
Charles: Yeah, sure. Yeah. And just one thing to add to that, too, that I feel like has been valuable for me in terms of, like, the artist label, but it could be any label, is noticing the presence of the. What you might call the inner critic or. Or whatever it is that immediately comes in and says, no, you're not that. Like, or you. You could. You couldn't be that or something like that, because I realize that's there for artists. It's like, that's not something that you are or that you can be. You need, first of all, like, you're not one of those people. And then second of all, like, you need proof for that. Like, you need to. You need that. You need the acclaim and success like the Oprah's couch. You need the. The book that is on some sort of bestseller list or something like that, just to be able to say that you're an artist or something. So I might add to. In that kind of practice, if that's something someone wants to clarify for themselves, to notice the presence of that thing and really try to let that get out of the way to help you be able to just pick what is the most pure thing. Like, for me just to remove that. I can say artists, because that's just what feels right. And then that has a way of extending out into maybe tangible things. But that's secondary to just how I feel at the center of everything.
Lou: So I would say if that voice shows up, that's probably even a sign that it. This is. Might be the thing. Right? So it's like noticing that there's probably some fear around being this thing. There's. There's some imposter syndrome because you care. Because it seems like, not a stretch, but it's like, really? Me? Like, no, no, me. Like, it's. There's a. There's almost like a. I guess psychologically, you might call it like a golden shadow. Like, there's something that we're not quite like. We. We feel in ourselves so deeply and we maybe see it in others, but we're not recognizing it in ourselves for whatever reason, because it might feel too. Too. Too big or too special or too beautiful. I don't know. There's something that's like, we're, like, resisting in that. And so the fact that if you have. If you are noticing that come up, I would even say, like, ok, I think. I think unfolding into our dreams. And this is curious of like, when, you know, where the dreams come from, what are true dreams or what are cultural dreams that we've been fed. Right. I would even say go so far as to say Oprah, right. Is pretty much like a cultural thing without, you know, what is the essence of that type of dream. And I think they sh. And I've heard this before. I'm not the first person to say this, but there's some level of that they should scare us a little bit, that they should, like, you know, make us a little bit on our toes, because that is us moving more into our aliveness. And I think it's really our aliveness, as I think Joseph Campbell has said. It's. It's not the meaning of life that we're seeking. It's the experience of being alive. And that's what's infectious, is when someone's fully in their spirit and aliveness. It's. It's so magnetizing and powerful, and it's. It's scary to get there. It's like we have to go on that hero's journey to really realize and embody that. And I can even think of myself, gosh, you know, eight, nine years ago, beginning writing my first book, and how big that looked to me, like, how like, up here, that seemed to do. And how I looked at anyone who had done it, like, just totally above me. It seemed so out of bounds. And now to have done it and have a way different perspective on it and be a little further on the journey, it's like, oh, actually, yeah, it's not. It's. It's. There's so much power that comes from going through those big hurdles and creating or stepping into roles that we might be scared to step into.
Charles: Yeah. Yeah. I wonder if. See if you can make sense of this thought, because I haven't fully yet. But there's something about the resistance to. To allowing that to really become alive that is. Maybe it's the other side of this, the inner critic that's like, protecting us in some way, because it can there. Even if it's maybe difficult and challenging. I do think there's something kind of really appealing about the hope for that someday, maybe like, to become an artist or to become a writer, to have a book or something, not actually to get there, but to have it as a thing like that I could do, or I'm on the way to doing versus. I do think there's maybe there might be certain ways in which it could be like, a letdown when you do do that. Even if it's in many ways, it's like. It's. It's quite liberating and freeing. But then it's like, well, is this it? Or, you know what now? As opposed to, like, the hope that could be attached to off. I write this book, get on Oprah's couch, and all these things, it can feel so big versus, like, okay, I've done it. I am a writer or I am an artist, but things aren't really maybe even that different now. So there could be something that. That that other thing is. Is like protecting us from in terms of embracing that. I'm reading a book that has. It's full of. Are you familiar with Kurt Vonnegut? Yeah. Slaughterhouse Five. And like, actually haven't read him, but I've Been, like, drawn to him in some. I don't know if you have artists like that or writers or people, but just, like, they've popped up in your life again and again. And so now I've ordered Slaughterh House 5 because I'm reading this book that I just found in a bookstore. It's like. It's Kurt Vonnegut's advice on writing, which has a cool title. It's Pity the Reader, which. That's kind of nice. And the message that I've gleaned from that so far is that it's. You're asking quite a lot of a person to actually read a book so, like, care for them and. And on a certain level, pity them and their experience. That is, like, actually quite difficult to sit through an entire book and read it. But what he said, he described after writing Slaughterhouse Five, which was this, like, thing he had worked on, I think, for over 20 years or something, it was like this. This project that was kind of at the core of what he wanted to do professionally. And then he finally did it, and it became this huge success. And then he's. He described his experience as, like, postpartum depression, which I think is a cool way of putting it, because, like, you know, it's this now what? Feeling I've done it, and everything might feel a little bit less meaningful when there's. There's not this hope attached to what life could become like when I have embraced this fully. So I just. I was just wondering if that could be a part of the. That other voice, too, that says, no, you're not. That it's actually trying to protect you maybe from that experience.
Lou: Interesting. It's such a common, common experience. And in some ways, there's a part of me that really wants that experience. Like, it. It wants the. The profound sadness of the day after Oprah interview to be like, wow, is that. Is that, you know, preparing for. For that. Like, knowing it. Knowing that that was what people say, right? Because it's. I'm not. I'm. No, I'm not deluding myself that anything's going to complete. Complete me. And I think that's. That's knowing that. Like, going into these things, knowing that. And I think David White, who has been talking about a lot. I don't know if you know the poet and writer David White. Yeah, he's. He's someone. And he's been on a lot of kind of popular podcasts recently, but I've had a few of his books in the past and recently reading another one of his books right now. And I love how he talks about work. It really resonates with how he talks about like vocation and work. But he's been talking a lot about kind of the anti Eckhart Tolle. He's actually been talking about the importance of past and future and how like we've kind of, you know, lost. Lost touch with, with, with like trying to be in the now. And he's a Zen. He's been a Zen meditator for a long time. So he can, like, he's coming at this from the inside in a. In a certain way. And, and I like how he talks about for the future when he talks about desire. And this is another word that we can either get so attached to, like, and there's some people in our world that are just like, you know, just, you know, get, you know, go for your desires. It's all about what you want, quote, unquote. And this can be where that kind of toxic manifestation, maybe that's where the toxic manifestation culture towards how he frames desire as the. It's coming from Latin desidere, which means of the stars. And a desire was almost like a directional path, just as the stars can be directional paths. And so when you have a desire, it's like it's not if it's. If it's true, right? And you can, It's. It's coming from the stars. And it's here to orient you in your life, to give you direction that is inherently like we need to, you know, have somewhere we were directing ourselves and who knows why it's being directed in this area now and who knows what the next desire that's going to come. But I've always liked how he framed that. And so it's like really honoring your desires. Not as, oh, I'm being selfish about what I want, but actually this is, this is. We have. It's so hard. Like we're all asking ourselves all the time, like, am I okay? How do I be okay? What is the most okay that I can be? How do I direct my life in a way that I can add to the okayness or hopefully the joy and the love and all the good things and a desire, a dream, another way to maybe use that word helps us to orient. It gives us direction. And that's purpose. Like, it doesn't matter one thing that we're doing. Once we have direction, you know, we can have purpose in so many things. Like, so many things I think the daily. And I know you're big on this as you write about in your book of. Of that just the daily rituals and habits, when done purposefully and directively, like, can be super meaningful on their own. And I think just to try to tie a knot on this whole thing, if you're feeling like your life is going to be completed when you reach your pinnacle, whether it's your super bowl is coming up. So maybe it's winning the super bowl or it's being on Oprah. Like, the difference is, is it meaningful as you're doing it? Like, is it worth doing it as you. Are you enjoying it as you're doing it? Versus I need to do that thing in order to make it. I love just to connect the sports to this Aaron Rodgers, who's kind of. He's been kind of public about his Ayahuasca ceremonies and just kind of just being on more podcasts that are in the realm of things that we're into. So I've been a huge Aaron Rodgers fan, and he's someone who got to win a Super bowl in his, like, second season or one of his first seasons starting and had that profound low. And he.
Charles: He.
Lou: This year, I just. I just love. Because you don't. No one's talking like this in sports, but this year, the jets just had a completely disappointment of a year. And people keep asking Aaron Rodgers, like, hey, you know, how tough was this year? Was this year like, the most difficult year of your career? And he's like. He's like, honestly, this is one of the best years of my life. Like, I, you know, because it's not. He's. Because he's explaining like, hey, it's not about, yeah, winning the super bowl is where we're aiming to. But the relationships, the. The process. Right? He's just a lover of the process, that it's like, yeah, we got to enjoy this time with each other and go through the heartache together as this band of brothers and go through some joys and go through all that together. That. That is, in essence, meaningfulness on its own. And then I just. To keep the football going. But then I watched the Eagles game yesterday, and, you know, Saquon Barkley at the end, who's the running back, who's having one of the greatest seasons of all time. You know, talk about seller. Not celebrating this too much because they're focused on the super bowl, and that's going to get applauded in the culture, right? To say, yes, yes, you got to go. It's all about winning the Super Bowl. And of course, Saquon hasn't won it. So he can't know that it's maybe not all of it, but it's just kind of a contrasting view to I think someone who has hit the pinnacle, realized it's not what you think and is understanding that he actually still loves the process of what he's doing. So I don't know if I got too. Went too far to left field with the football, but. But in. Yeah, hope it relates with some.
Charles: I watched the Aaron Rodgers documentary thing on Netflix recently, the Enigma actually just like this past week it was super interesting, but that was making. Just made me think of I guess, a continuum of desire. Maybe there's a pure side of the continuum and a less pure side of the continuum. And maybe the less pure is more quote unquote ego driven or it's trying to complete you or it's like once I get that then things will be different. Then it's more like reaching, grabbing kind of versus a more pure side which is more of a. Like it's coming out of you or it's expressing something through you that it reminds me of. And you mentioned Zen too, that I've been working on this Zen based project for almost a year now. And along with that came a fair amount of there's my own experiences, but I wanted, I just wanted to reread things, read new things as well and like just kind of research in the creation of the project. And I came across something that I hadn't heard of before. But I thought it was quite nice that at least in terms of what I've read, the Buddha made a distinction between two different types of desire. Which is helpful I think is because one might think of Buddhism as like remove all desire. And that's the key. But it was helpful to see this distinction between what he called trishna and virya. Have you heard of those?
Lou: No.
Charles: Yeah. So this trishna is like maybe that kind of the impure side of the continuum of desire which is. And it's, it can be translated as thirst. It's like this kind of grabbing, trying to satiate something that is not internally satiated thing. And that is a never ending vicious circle of suffering. Like the, you know, samsara, just repeating the suffering by trying to get something that you don't already have. So trishna. But then virya can be translated as like vigor. And my understanding of that type of desire is it's like, it's the desire to wake up or like to be who you really are. And so maybe it's like you're writing. It could be for either reason. Like, it could be for Trishna. It's like, because I want people to like me. I want to. I want me to like me. I want, you know, I want something to show, to say, look, I'm a success. Or it's like I'm writing because that just feels like I have to do that. Or it's just something more pure. It's like there's something I want to say, something I want to express that it's like it's more connected to just who I really feel that I am or I want to paint because that just feels right or whatever it might be. So that, for me, is a helpful distinction too, as one might consider or think about their own desires. Is it coming from the desire to awaken or really be alive, really be who you are? Or is it coming from something that feels more like a thirst, ego thing, where you're trying to get something that maybe isn't you, or you're trying to, you know, shield who you feel you really are by these things? So I thought that was cool because I actually hadn't heard of that. And it went in the face of what I might have assumed about Buddhism or, like, about the Buddhist perspective, where kind of all desire is something to release, but that there might be this pretty pure form, like what you're describing of desire.
Lou: You're connecting a difference between what you want to do versus what you can't not do. Like where it's almost like you're not quite right, or you're not feeling whole or you're not you. And there might be like an oh, shit moment too. It's like. Like similar to what we were talking about before, that fear. It's like. Like, I have to do that. Like, this is not going to be easy. Like, this is not an easy task, but it's my task to show up in this way and all right, like that, you know, that is Christening is the word that's coming to me. But it's like, this is the role I'm here to play. And it's, can I step up like that? There's some power that the universe has bestowed uniquely to me, uniquely to you, uniquely to everyone listening. And it's asking, can, are we here to say yes to it? And that's speaks to again, the hero's journey. The first part of the hero's journey is refusing the call. Being like, no, that's too much. But then it coming again and being like, no, I have to. I have to go on this. I don't exactly know why, but this is what life is asking. Yeah, Charles, I. I know. It's. I love that I know what I. I thought we were going to talk about most of the time. Totally not what we talked about most of the time, which is. Which is super fun. I want to do that more on interviews. It's really. I'm. And I'm just making this connection out loud because I'm wondering if other people can resonate maybe if they do podcasts or do any kind of speaking. But there has been moments earlier on in this conversation where, Charles, you're talking and then there's this part of me that's like, I don't know if you stop talking, what question I would ask Nesk next. But that feeling, noticing that feeling where in the past I might shut down and get like, there's like a fear of, I need to know where this is going or he's going to sit, you know, not talk. And then I'm not going to know where to take this, but of actually being well, like actually celebrating that feeling of like, I actually have no idea where this is going to go and can I be comfortable in what I once thought was a feeling I'm not supposed to have? Like. And I think this is literally crystallizing on as we're speaking here, Charles. So thank you for this. Is that I think in sometimes the over preparedness that I do in other places or even on podcast is like, I'm not trying to feel that feeling. I don't want to feel that feeling of uncertainty in directing. But yeah, they're just interesting. And like, can that be actually what I'm looking for? Can I kind of have more of that edge of wow. I don't exactly know where this is going to go, but can I stay centered and trust that, you know, the right words or the right thing will show up?
Charles: Right. Yeah. Because as loud as that voice becomes, the less receptive you will be to what could be the next question, which might so obviously present itself. As long as you're willing to just remain. I have no idea where this is going, but let me just kind of be as present as possible with what's here and trust that it will be fine even if I don't have something.
Lou: To say, which is so. And there's another thing that's connecting today is this is so easy for me to do that if I'm in a coaching context with someone. Like, one on one. Like, that is the essence of a lot of the things I'm coaching, I'm going to have a sense of where we're going. But I'm really not trying to wait for the next thing to say. I'm really trying to be listening and trusting. But when there's an audience, when there feels like there's someone waiting for something, totally different experience for me. So you're working on your Zen course. I want to note another huge project you did since the last book that you wrote and kind of speak to its success because I don't know everyone's numbers on Insight Timer but I know yours and I know mine and your course is just absolutely crushing it and that's Dao Te Ching mastery which was I think 88 or 87 day course.
Charles: 83 days.
Lou: 83. I don't know why I got this. 7 or 8. 83 nonetheless. Impressive. And now you're working on 111 day course I believe. And for anyone listening that's like how the heck did Charles do that? And it's really wor. I mean it's really working like you're the audience is. I don't know if you want to share numbers or not, but your daily use usage on that is listeners on that is. Is. Is mind bending and yeah, just maybe just speaking whatever you want to speak around it.
Charles: Sure. I can like. Would it be of interest like to share that because that's another kind of ego, you know, get involved thing I noticed with you. I think I feel most comfortable I guess to share that because I don't feel like there's a. I feel like you genuinely want to know and would be more in like a celebratory sort of energy. Not to say anyone else wouldn't but I just like it's a thing that I have to you know, question my own intentions for. For sharing that. But I mean I'd be happy to. To share.
Lou: I would love for you just because people here, if you go, just go look at your Insight Timer courses, the plays that they get or the plays you get per day. I will say I'll be transparent with my course that my best performing course at the moment which is 21 days of morning inspiration and motivation gets about anywhere between 60 to 100 plays a day. And that's like solid. That's solid. My other I have a sleep course that gets like 30 to 50 a day. My most popular course of all time can fluctuate between 30 and 70 65. So like if I'm in a hundred number a day on a course I'm like, wow, that was a really good day for this course. And so that's. That's You. That's to give a anchor of where I'm at. And now Charles's course on data, Ching mastery.
Charles: That's where my. That's where my other courses are too. Like, my. My most successful, second most successful one is in the like. Like, 70 would be a good day for that one, but this one, like, the last. Over the past week or so, it's had several 1500 play days even.
Lou: He's blowing my mind. Even when I thought I knew the number. That is so amazing. And it goes to.
Charles: Yeah.
Lou: What do you. What do you make of that? Like, I. I have my own ideas around it, but what do you make of that? You know, it's an example. We can. We can take other examples in other industries, right, of, like, hey, you're just working. You're working, you're working. And you find one that just. Just works, right? That. That just has that extra recipe of, like, this just. Is just working. Yeah. What do you. How do you. What do you make of its success?
Charles: Yeah, it's. It's a good question because, like, a lot of it is. It just kind of feels like the dao, Given a listener's familiarity with the dao, it's like this incredibly powerful force that if you just kind of get out of the way and, like, let it happen through you, then there's like, some powerful stuff can happen. So it feels like it's an expression. That's kind of. My understanding of it is. It's like there's this really cool thing, the Dao Te Ching, and. And I found a way to share it, and then people experience it and, like, they have for thousands of years. It's like, it's a very effective thing for people to have in their lives. So that's one that there's just maybe at the core of it, there's a very powerful teaching kind of offering. But then I was also pretty intentional about just wanting to give it the best chance that. That I could. And. And my way of doing that was. Well, I encourage people to. This was also when we were being paid for comments. I was in the creation of that course. And so I was. I was like, without having to be forced, just try to create the course with that in mind and just encouraging people to comment as, like, frequently throughout, not only to ask questions, but even to share, like, use it as a journal. Use it as. Just tell me one line like, that stood out to you, or I might Ask people questions in the session and be like, if you're comfortable, share it in a comment and, and in the comments, you know, we can respond and with voice comments back to them. So that was pretty successful, I think, at keeping people regularly involved and maybe helping them feel like they have a personal relationship with me as they go through. And then you can like, you know, you have the fixed content of the course, but then it's almost like an added course when you have this regular connection with the teacher of it. So that was, that's one thing. And, and I now have like, there's like continues to be many, many comments. And I keep that as a. It's like a daily hour of my time to just respond to, to the comments. So that's the thing. I also, I decided when I released it I would schedule a live session every week connected to it. So it's like a little space for people to in the course to come to, but also that maybe every week one or two new people see it or more. And so that's been something where like, it's a consistent thing. And some people now, they just come every week because it's like a. It's a thing that has developed. But then, you know, Inside Timer might feature your live session and then you just. There just so happens to be a large pocket of people coming in and then there's new people. So I'd say that has like kept it growing where my other courses pretty much feel fairly stagnant in terms of growth, but this one has continued to grow. And my guess too is there's. I don't know how Inside Timer works in terms of algorithms or like how they choose which courses to show to certain people. But my sense is there's some sort of like viral thing that has happened with this one. I don't know exactly how that would have happened, but it's just like so exponentially
Charles: has done so exponentially better than my other ones. I just imagine that something has happened where it's like being recommended to people way more than some of these other ones. So it's like a couple thoughts.
Lou: Yeah. Incredible. I hope you celebrate Charles to we talk about abundance, right? To hear what Charles's numbers. To hear 1500 plays a day. It's a day. If you got 1500amonth on a course, I would say you probably had a solid. You had a solid month on that course. But 1500 a day to really just, I hope listening. If you're on Inside Timer and you're doing meditation courses to use that as to really celebrate with Charles, to feel that expansion because that's truly how we expand and you know, inside timers a platform that is built on that mutual generosity, that mutual celebration of everyone. Or maybe not celebration, but thriving of everyone. I know that's definitely the intention. So you have this breakout course and now you're about to finish 111 days. How has that been different? And I know you know you're. And I know you're not thinking it's going to be the same. Like I think, I think I'm getting a sense you're, you're letting yourself trust whatever it's. It's going to be. Yeah. Like how you feel and how, how does one finish 111 day course?
Charles: Yeah, and I can't really tell you yet because I still feel far away from it. Although like I'm relatively close. And I've done a lot of editing in this one. Like, because the way I was getting through it is I was going. I was doing one a day. I would just do, I would write, record and edit that day. So I'd be like, okay, I can get this done in a fairly reasonable period of time if I just do one a day. But that was, and that was a lot to. To do all that in a day. But I was like, it was manageable. By the end of the day I could have one and I was feeling good about that. But then it seems to me that in the creation of a long form project, like inevitably you evolve in the way you're thinking about things or articulating things. And so when I got to like 70 something and then I was going to go to this, to the Zen monastery that I refer to frequently in the course and that you went to. But then I got Covid then and then I was sick for like a couple weeks. It was a pretty intense experience of COVID And that just threw off. I was already going to take like a couple days break to go to the monastery, but then I had to take like two weeks break to get back into the process of recording. And so what I did instead in that time is I started listening back to all the way back to the beginning. Just that just felt like something to do at that time. And I was like these first ones, it just didn't feel some right. Just didn't feel right about it. Like as it related to where I was in the course and the way I was sharing because I think it had become a lot more kind of economical and like just less and more precise and. And so then that led me to be like, I can't just let it go out like this. Like, it has to feel just right for me. So then at that point I went back to one and I didn't. I didn't re. Record anything, but I was just re. Editing basically, and I just removed. Removed mainly I was just like, getting rid of stuff that didn't absolutely have to be there. And so then I went back through that and now I'm kind of like back into the 70s. I've recorded 110 of them. I wanted to leave the last one for, like, literally being at the end of everything. But yes, it's been definitely taxing. And that's the interesting part of that desire thing too. Like, there's a lot of this that I don't like and like, don't want to do, but it still feels connected to, like, the. The intrinsically meaningful desire. And there's something even right about that to have a certain pain that it takes to get it, you know, finished and complete. Like, that might be inevitable in the completion of a real big, like, meaningful project. So, yeah, I don't know if that answers your question, but it's. It's. It's been quite difficult. But I think the sustaining thing is that it's coming from like, the center of my circle. I would say it's just like something that just feels really inherently meaningful for me to complete. And I. This is kind of a gauge for me of if I could get to the end and say insight timer rejects it, which could happen, I would. I would still be okay with that. Like, and I would find some other avenue. But, like, the creation of it has felt intrinsically meaningful to me. Also. A thing that has helped me is trying to make something that I want to listen to. Like, that's felt really important as a gauge and, like, makes it enjoyable for the most part along the way. Because it's like, I would say in the past, like my other courses, many of them, I probably wouldn't want to listen to them. Not that I don't like them, but I was creating them for a particular person that I had in mind. Like, that is the listener. And it's like, not stuff that I would personally listen to. So that's been something. I don't know if that's useful or helpful. Helpful, like that. That's been an increasing. Increasingly the gauge of whatever I might be working on or creating. Like, is this something I would want to read or listen to? And like, that's the thing, because I think The Dao Te Ching was maybe the first one where I got close to that. Like, I would just want to. I like this style of things. And then it turned out to be, like, quite successful. So I wonder if that might be something to throw into, like, what you're creating. Worry less about who you think the audience is or who wants to hear this and focus more on, like, is this something that I would want to. To engage in or listen to? And that might be the most valuable kind of barometer or compass for the creation. So I kind of meandered there.
Lou: But, Charles, you are an exemplar of everything I aspire to creatively and. And honestly, just as a. As a good human being as well, too. Just knowing how. How you operate and how you show up in your life and the things that you put care and energy to. I'm so glad I know you. I'm so glad I get to call you a friend and spend time with you on a weekly basis and continue to learn from you. And thanks so much for sharing so much wisdom on this podcast. I hope you listening took. Yeah, there's so many nuggets in here. I'm excited to attempt to make a title out of this. So maybe, Charles, if you have any ideas, we could talk about that offline. But, yeah, thanks so much for spending the time, man. It was super fun.
Charles: Yeah, thanks for having me. And you've also been integral, I would say, to my continual growth professionally or career wise or beyond. Like, I don't. I don't think the Dao Te Ching course probably would exist if not for our group that, that you initiated. Like, because it came out of that, and so much of my work has come out of that. Like, that to me is. Is like, really valuable. So thank you for that.
Lou: No, speaking of, I just heard a reminder, probably 10 minutes we have. I get to see Charles again. So we're going to sign off this podcast, see you all next episode, and take care, friends.