Coaching Vs. Therapy: Differences, Similarities, The Good & The Bad w/ Jessica Amos
In this episode, I chat with my friend Jessica Amos on all things Coaching Vs. Therapy. Jessica shares her experience as a coach and as someone who has been in therapy. We talk about the key differences and how might someone approach knowing what is best for them.
Takeaways:
Discover the key differences and overlaps between coaching and therapy.
Learn why intimacy and realness are essential in coaching relationships.
Explore the importance of trauma sensitivity and knowing your coaching boundaries.
Understand how investing in coaching leads to better client outcomes.
Gain insights on creating a structured coaching practice that supports growth.
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Music Credit: Nova by River Roots - https://www.youtube.com/riverroots
Podcast Transcript
Lou: All right. Dear Art and Business of Meditation listeners, we have my friend Jessica Amos on the podcast today. This is Jessica's second time on the podcast, although her first time was nearly two years ago when this podcast was called the Awakening to Purpose Podcast. Just for a brief blip in eternity. And so it's crazy to think that I've been podcasting for two years. Like, I don't even even realize that I've been somehow doing that for two years. And so we have Jessica back on on this version of the podcast. For those that don't know her, she is a mindfulness teacher, life coach, punk rocker, and founder of Stay with yourself. The practice of being who you are, where you are. With 1 million students worldwide, Jessica's teaching style is down to earth, heartfelt and conversational, like you are connecting, intimate, safe and trustworthy friend. And Jessica is a friend of mine. So we're going to connect intimately, hopefully on this conversation. And hopefully it'll feel like you're just listening in on and being our friend, too, through the interwebs. So, Jessica, welcome to the show.
Jessica: Thank you so much for having me back. And also here for the first time.
Lou: There'S some kind of truism in that or some profound thing in what you just said. It's like, we're back, we're here for the first time, but we've been here already before. Is time really anything? Time is all happy. Everything is happening right now. Our future is already right. We could really trip out on this stuff.
Jessica: I would be so down with that. Like, anytime, anytime.
Lou: Let's see where this wants to go. I know we kind of just chatted briefly and I'm open to this going wherever it wants to go. I think that's where I have the most fun on the podcast, is when we're just able to have, like, conversations that we'd be interested in having outside of, you know, having an audience on there. But I know that you've been really interested in talking more about coaching and developing and deepening your coaching practice and growing your coaching practice. I actually connected with you early on because I had seen some coach trainings that you did with a person that I've I followed for a while, Preston smiles. And I think that was one of our earlier connections was seeing that, I think in 2021. And then for those listening, Jessica has been part of my intimate, close mastermind for the last almost over two years now, since, I guess, at the beginning of end of 2022. And so I actually know, though, Jessica, that's Gonna be fun. And you're a person that we can. We can disagree on certain things. I think I've heard you speak to how you talk about the difference between coaching and therapy, and I. I have a different view. So maybe we could start there and we can have a fun exploration around where that wants to take us. So. Yeah. How do you think of the difference between coaching and therapy?
Jessica: Um, yeah, well, first of all, I love it, and I do love that we're both coaches and we do riff off each other. We have similar. Were very similar, but different. So this has been coming up for me a lot only because I've had to check my own jadedness around therapy and coaching both having been in therapy for years and also being a coach and doing therapy, I've had to, like, really check how I feel about both. And then I get a lot of clients that ask that question. It's a big question. So I've kind of broken it down to really simple. I think that for me, therapy is a lot about processing and about, like, awakening to, like, what's needing healing, what's needing attention, and actually starting to, like, process unprocessed or unconscious things, bring unconscious things into consciousness and to. And that's just simplistic. And then to me, coaching and working with a coach is very much about action starting to take action, starting to make. Act. Make active changes in your life. The same way that a coach works with, you know, a football team or a soccer team or you have a trainer at the gym, it's someone to kind of help you take all the unconscious and unprocessed stuff that you've been maybe working through in therapy. Not that that stuff doesn't transfer over into coaching, because there's definitely crossover. It's not like therapy is no action and coaching is no processing, but taking a lot of that and starting to actually make active changes. Boots on the ground, practices, and an actual, like, having someone there to hold you accountable and to see you and to know you. And to me, it's. It's not that therapy isn't intimate, but coaching is intimate in that I don't have a restriction around what I share about myself with my clients. Like, you know, it's part of the intimacy that I built in my coaching practice. I feel that is really, really important to building that trust and safety that you even talked about in the intro. So I also feel like coaching has potential to be a lot more intimate and go a lot farther or to pick up where therapy kind of leaves off for people. When they feel that they've, they've hit their limit with therapy and they're needing more.
Lou: That's curious for me. And I, and I actually think I agree on a lot of what you said. Maybe there was an email you wrote something maybe more bluntly. And some people talk about, I've heard some people talk about coaching and therapy like this and I just want to like, yeah, like no, that's way too simplified and I think misses the mark that I've heard people say coaching is about the future, where you're going, therapy is about like where you've been. And I'm like, yes, we can cut ourselves off like that, but we are, we are. You know, our past experiences drive us so much that I think it would be really short sighted to not un. Have an understanding of that. Right. Like to not have an understanding that those things that are unprocessed or on work through when you're saying, hey, take action on this when they feel stuck or paralyzed or, you know, they, they can't take action, you know, in, you know, instead of just saying, well no, no, we have to take action, we have to focus on this. Like it's actually the things in the past that often are the things that are getting in the way. And so you spoke to that a bit here in, in, in how you shared it. I, I'd be curious. There's so much we can talk about this. But first thing that was curious to me genuinely
Lou: before I say that I actually have never been in therapy, so I should speak to that. Like I've not been, I haven't had a therapist traditionally where I have had a couple's therapist for a period of time and we still plan on meeting with her and that's been phenomenal and also similar to some of like the men's work that I've done and the emotional work that I've done. So it didn't feel like totally it was a gestalt therapist and she was amazing. But when some people really talk about therapy, like you're just talking about things and you're not, you're circling around things and you feel like you're not getting anywhere. So I definitely have heard that it's such a broad term. Right. So many things can be therapy. So I will speak the ignorance of like, I actually don't know what like a 10 year therapeutic relationship would be like. I hope I never need to know what a 10 year therapeutic relationship. No doubt. No disrespect to those that have it, but I'd be Curious. When you say coaching is more intimate. Tell me more about that.
Jessica: Yeah, well, I'll speak a little bit to what you said and then I'll speak to that. So I have had, I had a six year therapy relationship with a therapist that after working with many different therapists that weren't a fit, some of it being me not ready for, for the, for the level of therapy that I needed and showing up super, super honestly. And also, you know, picking a coach or a therapist is like, is like picking a mate, you know, to spend your time with. You know, it's like very important that it's a good fit. So I finally found a therapist that was a great fit for me and it was a lot of processing about the past and how that was affecting my present. You know, how the way I was responding in the present had a lot to do with the past. And so you're right, it's coaching is similar. Like if it's really getting in the way of taking action then we should be, we should be processing through that. But the reason I talk about coaching being more intimate, I think the barrier that I always felt in therapy, I mean I worked with my therapist for six years so I'd say we got about as intimate as you could get in therapy with a therapist who is so open, so warm, so kind. I had to really practice. And I think this is the same with therapy and coaching. You have to make a commitment to being honest, like to show, like to showing up and speaking the truth. And I think I said this in the article that you're mentioning that I read that I wrote. And so that kind of creates intimacy. But I think the thing that felt like a barrier for me with my therapist was that I didn't know anything about her. And like occasionally she would like speak to this little thing about her life and that little thing about her life. And I think we were like two or three years in and I'm like seeing her every week or maybe we were every two weeks at that point, I don't know. And I was like, I don't know anything about you and it's driving me crazy. It's making me feel like really like I didn't like the one sidedness of it. And it's not like she wasn't sharing great wisdom and being deeply supportive. I just found that I was hitting a wall with like it, the not knowing this part. I needed to know more about her. I needed to know her story, I needed to know where some of this was coming from. And she indulged me, which was, which was great, but only again, to a certain extent. And so when I say that. And she also worked with, you know, sometimes eight to ten clients in a day, back to back to back, five days a week. Right. Like, this was her life's work, her passion to. Is all she did, you know. And as a coach, it feels, it's. That feels different. I, I don't have, I'm not under oath the same way a therapist is under oath, you know, to uphold certain things because the coaching industry is completely unregulated. And I think you and I have talked about that. And so I'm allowed to be more real. Like, I do check ins with my clients in between sessions during the week. And we use an app called Marco Polo, which is a video messaging app. And I'm just sometimes in my kitchen drinking coffee in my pajamas in the morning while having a processing session or I'm out. I'm like in my life still connecting with them, or I'm telling life stories or they're talking about something that's coming up for them and I'll be like, I'm going through the. It's the same for me. Like, I'm not pretending to, I don't have to pretend or hold some sort of line that I think therapists often do with their clients. And so I find for me and for the people that I work with, that's really valuable to those who value that, who need to feel. And I'm here to see you, I'm here to hold you, I'm here to reflect you back to you. And also I'm here to be human along with you. So that you can also see how in real time, in real practice, if I'm running into something and I can talk about it, how that is practiced as someone who is practiced in these things that I'm here to help support you with. And I think that's, that's really, really valuable. And yeah, so I, I value that though, as a coach. I don't think all coaches are necessarily that way, but I know that really works for me and for my clients. I think that answers your question.
Lou: I think it's. It, it totally does. And I think it feels like maybe that's. There are the red tape. I guess the therapist has to abide to. But maybe, I don't know. I can see that this is speaking just on like a more intuitive sense of that changing. Like, because we are all so connected and there is just an essence of, hey, we're all just human. Like I'm not, I'm a, not the, you know, I'm a flawed human being like you. And we all have our own stuff that we're working through. And I think the truism is, goes here, right? If your therapist isn't seeing a therapist or if your coach isn't seeing a coach. Like we all kind of need the medicine that we're giving and we can get into coaches coaching coaches in a little bit too. But I think that's really. Yeah, it's a really, it could be a really big thing that someone actually feels like they're there for you. And it's not just this hour. I show up and it's crazy to think that therapists can see 6 to 8 to 10. 10 sounds like absolutely bonkers. Like I don't know how much presence you could resource yourself to have that much extension of a presence to show up like often that often, that many times in the day. Like that would be crazy. I don't know. I know you take less clients, I think than I do, but I know that for me four clients a day is like, I think the max where I feel like I can really be fully present. I've done five and it's always, I'm always stretching if I'm doing five and especially now I do, I do actually 75 minute sessions nowadays. So it's even more of like you were. We're having to really resource. Um, I will speak to. I've, I've been in a coach training called Aletheia for, for nearly two years now at different stages and levels of it. And the teacher in Aletheia and the founder, Steve March, he's been a coach for like 20 plus years. Like he's, he's built a really robust methodology and he's just got a lot of, a lot of experience. And I've heard him talk about the difference between coaching and psychotherapy and I think it's, he really like opened my mind. Not even opened my mind, just made it clear of, oh, okay. Anyone that says there's not a difference is not, isn't, I think is not actually seeing reality. Like there is, there is similarities. And I, I like to think of it the way that he explained it was like a Venn diagram. Like you have coaching, you have therapy and then you have this mix of where these topics, these things are actually can be a part of both. Right. There's therapists that are, you know, developing of what makes you happy. Right. What brings you joy, what makes you lit. We're Trying to help people live better lives at the core of it. Right. So therapy and coaching still does that, I think where therap, where, where it starts to where a coach has to be like in their own integrity of around what can we hold? And that's why I think the idea, the, the capacity or the, you know, trauma informed or trauma, the way that Alethea calls about is trauma sensitive, like understanding trauma at a, at a foundational level, that it's going to impact in some ways everyone and that those impacts are going to show up when they want to find more purpose in their life, when they want to do the thing that they're coming for coaching. And so once they hit on something where they were maybe berated as a kid, right. You might say, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. This is for therapy. We can't touch this in coaching. But if you have a trauma sensitive approach, you can work with that. Not in a way that's overwhelming the system, but in a way that's, that's the stuff's going to come up. And so I think coach trainings that are just saying, hey, we're not going to talk about any of this stuff in the past. And if it comes up, I'm going to say, whoa, whoa, whoa, I can't hold this. It's. You're. We're not actually missing, we're missing an opportunity for some real growth. And so learning how to navigate. Yes. Their focus here's the big difference is are they coming to you to heal trauma or to focus on all the different things for coaching? If they're coming to you just to heal trauma. Yes. Send them to a therapist. You should not take a client because they want to heal trauma. If you are not a trauma therapist, if they're coming to you because they want to find more purpose in their life and they don't like their job. Okay, great. Well, as we work on that, we might hit on a traumatic experience that they've had. Okay. Because that's actually part of the healing and the growth. And so, yes, it didn't come to you for that. But as a coach, I think if you're, you have range in your coaching, you'll, you're able to hold that and work through that and process that and that's going to unfold to the next stage. And so I think, you know, that's something I think if you're listening to this is important to note and say, can I hold that? Because that's what stunts development. And often where coaching sometimes gets wrong is we think that if we just do enough, what happens is people start to do the things and they fail. That they feel like a piece of shit and then they have. It reinforces their self criticism rather than dealing with like, well, there's actually other things that are coming up here. And I'll just say one more thing on that. Where the Venn diagram is like, okay, there's similarities, right? Being more joyful, wanting to work on limiting beliefs or blah, I don't know. And then there might be things that are just coaching, like, hey, I want you to help me. I might even consider more mentoring. I want you to help me develop a new habit plan around this, this, this, and this is not to say therapy. Therapists don't do that as well. But then where it's, where it's purely therapy is like diagnosing. I have attachment anxiety disorder. I have anxious anxiety disorder. So some disorder, right? Something where you're. We're not diagnosing, we're not telling people, hey, I think you have this, I think this is what you're, you know, you should go do this or treating in that way. Right. Once you get to treatment or insomnia, right? Someone's coming to insomnia. Maybe there are sleep coaches that can work with that, but those are things that are more traditionally like, hey, this is for a therapist. So there is a big circle of, of interrelation. And I'm just, yeah, any, anyone that says coaching and therapy are in implicitly completely different are not understanding coaching and therapy.
Jessica: Yeah, yeah, no, they're, they're, they're, they're very important. They work together. Most of my clients have, are either in therapy or have been in therapy and we're kind of, you know, there's, there is, there's just so much crossover. They work together and it's so much about what the individual needs. You know, I've, I've worked with clients that are on medications and I've just coached them through even how to talk with their doctors. Like I'm not telling them what to do with their, with their plan, but it's like, okay, we just need to talk about your overwhelm with like who to talk to first, what doctors. You know, like even just having me as a friend and as a sounding board for their therapeutic and, and for their diagnosis and that kind of thing too is just really helpful. And that's just like a little side piece. But totally it's, it's, it's about the whole person. And both, I think both really work well together and Some people prefer one over the other. Some people just say, therapy does not work for me, and I really need a coach. And some people say, coaching, I'd rather go to therapy. And many people. Many people benefit from both.
Lou: Yeah, 100%. I have, have and had many clients where they're seeing a coach, they're. They're seeing me, and they're also seeing a therapist. And what often happens is we work on similar things, just from different. A little different approaches, and they actually really support each other in that. And it really feels like team coachee, right? It's like. It's like they're. It's. It's their team. And, you know, often because they're probably attracted to us in coaching, like, they have a therapist where they're. It's not totally opposite, right? It's not totally, like, left field of, oh, my therapist is saying this versus coaches saying that. And what's curious, though, you know, the coaching that we do, Jessica, and maybe you do it a bit differently sometimes. You know, life coaches just generalized life coaching, which is. Could be very different from basketball coaching.
Jessica: Right.
Lou: You know, it's. It's like, yeah, do these drills do this thing? And there are some life coaches who have more of a prescriptive method because they're really trying to almost like, teach something and guide something. I think that's a form of coaching. I tend to consider that mentoring, just to use words. How do you see pure life coaching? Because even therapists, like, I hear a lot of people, My therapist said this, and I'm like, I would never say that to a client. I would never, like, I would never make that kind of claim to someone.
Jessica: Just.
Lou: It doesn't feel aligned into how I am trying to coach. Right? The. The kind of. The cliche thing you hear is right. Like, you're. You're helping them find their own answers. And I think that's cliche for a reason. It's. It's really true. It's kind of getting them out of their own way. So the insight and the awareness and their own resourcefulness is more tapped in and. And that. And they are their healing source, their presence, their inner guide. Like, that's the coach. Like, if that's why I think of it, it's like, I can. If I can get you tapped into that or help you tap into. That's the thing that's always here that's gonna do all the coaching. Like, you don't even really need a coach when you're really tapped into that. So how do you think of that, that like the difference in teaching and mentoring and coaching and, and, and that totally.
Jessica: Yeah, no, I, I a thousand percent agree with just the sentiment of like my really my work as a coach. And you could probably say this is about therapist, but I'm just gonna keep it to the life coach. And like what we do, I think what we do is like subtle, you know, Like, I'm not, I'm not a personal trainer. I'm not. I mean, I can help you with your diet plan if you want to, but like, that's not, that's not the point. I'm here. You chose me. And this, I take this as a huge honor. Like, if you're my client and we're sitting here together and you're choosing me, you're choosing me to be an honest and loving and no bullshit mirror for you. Like, I'm not here to bullshit you. I'm not here to just like be like a diagnose you or tell you, oh yeah, your dad was a narcissist or anything like that. Like, that's not my, that's not what I'm here for. I'm here to mirror back your deepest heart and your deepest truth to you. Because it's really hard to see ourselves, you know, and we need trusted people that aren't our friends, that aren't our family, the people who really have no skin in the game apart from. I am 100% here to see you, to know you, to reflect you back to you, but you already know about yourself to be true, to also reflect back to you that you already do have the answers. And to say aha, that's it. You got that right there. So that you can learn to trust yourself. Because it's hard sometimes when we're just siloed and by ourselves, learning to trust ourselves, like what voices to listen to. And you and I have both spent a lot of time it with ourselves in this way. I can't say I'm perfectly practiced, but I'm pretty practiced. And so it, It. It goes a long way just to have someone who sees you, who sees your goodness, who sees your heart, who sees your intention, who reflects it back to you, and also can say, yes, yes, yes, yes. Ding, ding, ding. Right there, what you said right there. I was thinking about this like kind of after we chatted about doing this episode. I was thinking about how one of the simplest things about coaching is. And it could probably. This could probably be true for a therapist too, if we, you know, depending on what you want, the modality to be. But my number one job is to see you, to hear you, to listen to you and reflect you back to you. And so often I'll be listening to a client. You know, they show up and they're talking about the thing and we're doing a check in. And I'll just reflect back to them what they said, which is kind of a very therapeutic method, really. And they'll be. And they'll either be like, wow, how did you get that from what I said? And it's very simple to just be like, you literally just said that. Like you. Those are the words that came out of your mouth. Or sometimes their response is like, no, no, no, no, no. That's not what I mean. I'll be like, well, that's what you said. So, you know, we can break. And I think that. And then when you. And then, because I like building intimacy with my clients and we talk more regularly than just once a week or once every two weeks, like a therapy session, I get to start to see their patterns too. Like, a lot more quickly and a lot more intimately. I get to see that the pattern behavior and that. I think that for people is really, really powerful. Because when we're just kind of even by ourselves or even just meeting with our therapist once a week, we can keep that stuff hidden. We could even be married to someone who doesn't know these things about us, right? So when we choose to enter this contract with a coach, or at least for me, I'm here to see your heart. I'm here to see your patterns. I'm here to reflect it back to you. And people really like that because people don't want to be bullshitted. They don't just want someone to just agree with them and nod their head and say, oh, yeah, yeah, poor baby, you know, and that's. That's one of the greatest joys in this too, is, is just being able to, like, you're not, you know, treating them like they're capable, treating them like they can and seeing that they can. And the fact that, you know, that they're showing you that they can and they trust you and believe you in that. It's like, it's very. It's a huge honor. And that's also why I sometimes say there's a lot of people you should not trust out there as coaches, and there's a lot of therapists you shouldn't trust either. But because it is, we have a lot of power in this position. There's a lot of trust, a lot of vulnerability.
Lou: For sure it could be, it could become. And you know, I've, I think I've not gotten too out of hand but I could think back over the last five or so years that I've been coaching and can remember maybe moments of yeah a grandioseness or a self aggrandizement like oh my gosh, I can. Because it's incredibly powerful when you actually help someone to think that you have some sort of magic, you know, you have like a, you know, this is common in any sort of spiritual lens of. Or if you're, you know, healing, if you're a healer, like the fact that you can kind of take on an identity around I can help you and there's some kind of status and ego kind of builds up the ego. It can if you're not, if you don't get gut checked or you know, do your own self work to look at that stuff because that's, that's really important. And though the wild west of the coaching industry I love and it also has created, I think a, I don't want to say a mistrust of coaching but there's just too much, there's too much unknown I think for people. If you're listening to this and you want to do healing work and you want steady clients, go be a therapist. Like just full stop the market for therapy and therapists, right. Just that word is so much bigger than the market for coaching. It's beyond, it blows my mind. Like people, people become therapists, they don't even have a website and like you can't even get, you can't even book with them. Like it's just you tap into a network. I don't exactly, I'm not exactly sure exactly how it works but I know that that's be the case when people are becoming therapists. And I think there's multiple things here. There is the, the education industrial complex of one. If people have a title or certification still there's a level of trust or hey, this is what you do. This is the thing you get which makes sense. Like hey, if I'm feeling, if my knee's broken, I'm going to go to a knee doctor. I'm not going to go to a knee coach. Right. Like someone that's going to. Right. If, if. So if I feel like my mind, like what do I know? If, if my mind or mental health or emotional health is not feeling good, I'm going to go to a therapist. And by all means they're not saying that you should not do That I think, I don't know. I'm just kind of exploring this because also there can be a lot of bad therapists. I know. I don't think I've talked. I have friends that are therapists. I ask them, hey, what do you think of betterhelp? And they're like, they hate it. One, it's exploitative. It doesn't. You can't have good quality therapists when someone's paying a hundred dollars a month to meet up with a therapist four times a month. Like just. You just can't. I, I had a friend who was doing betterhelp and he said, yeah, one time my therapist came on and was drunk, like noticeably. And I had to be like, hey, like, you know, you're this, we don't have to do this call. And, and obviously that was the last time he saw that, that person. But, but so just saying this, like everything is, it's not so black and white. I think that's the essence. It's like there's going to be bad and good in everything. And I think if you are listening and you really just want to. If you don't want to do marketing or do other things like I think as coaches we. If you don't want to speak on stages or do do all the other things like a coach author typically would do, donor run classes, workshops. And they'll say therapists don't do this too. They do, but typically they're seeing more clients. Like it is worth considering going and getting some sort of therapeutic degree because you'll probably have a fuller schedule if you like the. I don't know. I'm curious how you might think, like what you would say to someone that's knows they want to help people. That's considering, hey, do I go do a therapy degree? Yes. There's probably depending on the coach training or therapy training more or less investment. I'm not exactly sure. Um, I've definitely invested a lot into coach trainings and not just like business coach trainings, like actual like coaching skill trainings. Yeah. Curious what you would say to someone who's like, hmm, I know that I want to work in private sessions with people. Do I become a coach or a therapist?
Jessica: You know I will. First off, no one's ever, ever asked me that question. So. But my, but my sense of it is just in being in the world and interacting with people. There's people who are usually just like better suited for one or the other. Like, you know, some people really, really value going to school, getting the education Getting the degree, going through the. They like the loopholes, they like the structure, they like, they like that about being in therapy. And there some people really like the ego of it as well too. Like I am now. They are a therapist, you know, whereas coaching, it is a. I like that you call coaching world the wild West. It is the wild West, a thousand hundred percent. It's the wild West. But if you want like more freedom of time, if you want to have more freedom to work with people the way that you want to work with people without all the rules and restrictions, if you do want to, you know, be broader, have more quality freedom of time and freedom of, of work. Coaching, I think is a really great fit for a lot of people. And I will say just based on. I totally agree. There's good and bad in all of it. There's super, super burned out therapists. I would say I've met more burned out therapists than I have burned out coaches, that's for sure. I will say the thing that coaches struggle with is boundaries, but therapists struggle with Boundari too. Anyone in this helping world struggles with boundaries. They don't have to. But I'd say if you're actually choosing someone to work with, choose someone with good boundaries. And whatever you choose, have good boundaries. Like really work on your boundaries and your structure and your routines with your clients. Like, don't let them walk all over you no matter what you're doing. But when it comes to coaching versus like being a coach, first, I have only had a handful. I could probably count on one hand how many people have actually asked me what my certifications are as a coach. I happen to have a like mindfulness, like meditation certification. But it's not actually a coach's training. But I have trained myself. I've gone through coaching training kind of like you. I've done, I've trained myself, I've learned, I've hired coaches, I've worked in groups, I've, I've educated myself. And a lot of times people come to me because they've taken one of my courses, they watched one of my YouTube videos. Like they're familiar with me because I put my work and my wisdom out into the world. And people like already have typically built up trust with me and they get a sense of my whole vibe, my whole aura before the ever even book, like a discovery call or before we ever even have a chat. And I'd say that's the wonderful thing about coach coaches and choosing a coach too is coaches are putting themselves out there. We're letting you know what we're about, whether we wrote a book on it or we're putting stuff on social media. That's one of the fun things about being a coach is we get to like, really talk about and people get to choose us. Not because we entered our information is some sort of network and ended up with some random therapist. There's kind of some free agency with the clients as well, too, to say, I'm going to put my money where my mouth is. I'm going to choose this for myself. I'm going to choose a coach that I feel is the right fit for me. Whereas therapy world can be more of like picking names out of a hat, you know, or picking straws. And it can be really difficult to swap out one therapist for another and to even know what you're going to get before you walk into your first therapy session. So I know that kind of went a little off with your question, but I'd say people typically know if they're built for one or the other. You know, either you want the wild west or you want, you know, tea time at the Ritz, I guess.
Lou: I have noticed though that there have been some, I would say three that I can. Two that I know personally, and one that I followed a new through another person who. And I think he specifically, his name was Shannon Aljeo and he had a podcast called Soul Feed. It was like a pretty popular spiritual podcast, I would say circa 2016, like 2017. And I knew someone that was a client of him and it seemed like he had a really successful coaching practice. I think he was doing well and he decided to become like a psychotherapist and go that route. And so I also know two other people that, you know, became established coaches and then decided to go more the therapeutic route. I think one of them became a little disillusioned because, like the coaching industry, there's some interesting corners and it can get, as I spoke about recent things, it can get a little pyramid schemey sometimes it can be a little like, you know, where it becomes just all about kind of business coaches coaching business coaches and, you know, doing these more like the sales tactics that can be out there, right? The high pressure, high ticket sales tactics. And it's not to say there's nothing about, you know, with. With coaching because you're able to get more niche. You're able to say, hey, I solved this problem for this problem, you know, to go to a knee surgeon is going to be at a more specific value, right. Than a general practitioner. So there is something in that for the right people, you get to choose your clients more and often get to charge. What you can charge is different than if you're just doing like, hey, we're doing a general therapy session. So that, that tends to be the reason that some therapists go into coaching. And so like, oh, I'm able to kind of get more niche. So I do see that the other way. But it is interesting to, to see some people that I know going more like the getting the traditional therapeutic route. And there's a myriad of reasons of why they might do that. I was going somewhere with this, so if you have something from that, I'll.
Jessica: Fill in the gap real quick, which is saying that I actually know a lot of coaches that used to be therapists. So I find that really interesting. You know, just the, the seeing the difference. And what I've heard from therapists that have gone into coaching is they like the freedom. They like, they like the freedom of time. They like the freedom to be able to work with clients the way they want to work with clients. They like that they can work with fewer clients and, and still make more money and have more, you know, and, and I would say too, even for people out there who are trying to choose a therapist or a coach, you know, consider like, yes, I think therapy is cheaper overall. A lot of times insurance covers therapy where it doesn't cover coaching. And a lot of times people are just going with what they can afford. So I'd say like, if you don't have any extra funds to spend on coaching and therapies, what's available to you, it's still worth like starting somewhere. But also I think that there's something really powerful in putting your actual dollars where, like where your mouth is, so to speak, on the changes you want to make. It, it actually starts to really, it has a very compounding effect on like, oh, I just put my own hard earned money into this thing that I've decided I want for myself. There's a spiritual effect to that. There's a law of motion effect to that of conscious choosing. And money is one of those things that's so precious and so essential to our survival that to, to choose to do that is a huge deal. And also because a lot of coaches and depending on what kind of coach you choose, they do charge more for their services. They're typically happier, they're thriving more, they're not as burned out, and they're more emotionally and mentally and physically and spiritually available to their clients. So a Lot of times it's really worth the investment because when your coach is thriving, you thrive. When your therapist is thriving, you thrive. But if you're in a scarcity mindset situation where it's like, has to be as cheap as possible or you're on good therapy.com or whatever that website is and it's just cheap, that's what you're going to get. You know, you're going to get burnt out drunk therapists. And I'm not saying that's like a very, like, you know, I'm not saying that's going to be the case. There's, there's diamonds everywhere. There are, there are great people everywhere, no matter where you're putting your money and your dollars. And so I think that's another part of just, just to start listening to your intuition on what feels right. And that's often what I feel with my clients too is they're like, gosh, this just feels like it locked in. I've been searching, I've been looking and this just feels right. And then sometimes I talk with someone and they're like, you know, thanks for the chat. And for me it's the same too. It's like, you know, thanks for the chat and this isn't a fit. But anyway, that's just a little gap filler in the conversation.
Lou: And I remember what I, the, what I wanted to note because you mentioned like, not, not every coach has to be like us where you're creating content, you're showing up, you're being visible, you're kind of some, you know, some sense we are influencers in that way. Like as much as probably wouldn't love that word, but sharing ourselves, sharing long, especially long form content. You mentioned courses and I think I'm a big bullish on, hey, the reason that I get clients is not because they watched my 32nd Instagram reel was because they spent 21 days with me meditating every day. And they've developed that trust, that trust factor. So I'm, you know, big bullish on meditation courses. If you need support in your meditation courses, I have a course, meditation course creator Academy Plug Plug, Sales Plug, come check that out. I give so much value for that, for that because we're doing a monthly coaching call anyway. If you don't want to do that, you don't have to. There's actually coaching and this is where it would be helpful to actually get a coaching certification because I know and I'm around circles of coaches that they barely have a website, but they're Booked out because they are in more corporate circles. Right. So if you have corporate connections and if you can get into executive coaching, you'll make a ton of money. If you get into executive coaching, but not even executive coaching. If you can tap into companies that hire coaches for their employees, it might be a. You might not be able to do the type of coaching for fully that you want. But it is a place where I notice you have to do more of that interview style. Right. It's like they're going to, you know, interview three coaches. So it's a different. It's more like therapy in that way. They're just. But if you can get out of your ego, like, you can, you can. And that's the hardest part for me. If you can get out of your ego, you could probably, you know, build your clients that way. So I just do want to kind of speak to that because the corporate world is hiring coaches, and especially if you have background in the corporate world, something to consider. So.
Jessica: Absolutely.
Lou: What would you recommend someone who wants to start as a coach or start, like, set. Maybe they are just early coaches and they're like, they're still figuring out how to set the container or what, you know, the structure of it. Like, how have you. How have you helped? Because I know you do work with some coaches on, like, developing that. So how would you help them?
Jessica: Yeah, great question. One of my favorite things, it's like a newfound love of mine is working with other coaches, especially new coaches or people that want to improve not only their coaching skills, but also the business side of coaching. You know, the art and business of coaching.
Lou: So it's kind of part of this podcast. Right, too. And by the way, I love that. I love that so much too. Like, I don't know. I love working with coaches, and that's why I have my own qualm around. Like, I'm just don't want to be a coach that coaches coaches. But I love it. Like, it's so fun because they get it and it's like, you know, it's. We're all just helping each other help other people. And I think there's. That's the beauty of the ripple effect. Anyway, I'll pause.
Jessica: Yeah, no, exactly. And I think that, like, I. So I've been coaching for 13 years. I started coaching back in 2012. I was like, I think I want to be a coach. Like, whatever. Like what?
Lou: Doing, like, phone calls? Like, who's doing coaches on, like, phone call?
Jessica: Like, I was doing in person.
Lou: In person?
Jessica: Yeah, like, in person. Meetings with people. And honestly I'm not even sure I had like a link on my website and I'm really not even sure how people found me, maybe through the local yoga studio or something. But the reason I love it is because I realized like, wow, like you're owning your own business and you're working with people and you're doing all this stuff. So when someone new who wants to enter the industry like comes along or is like, hey, I did my certifications and now I don't know what to do about the business part of it. Or I did my certification and they only covered so much and like, how do I even set up like getting clients to begin with? Like, there's so much that different programs and certifications don't teach you. They might walk you through a program, but there's so much about the business side of it. And then there's also just the getting down, like into the room. Once you're in the room with a client, like, what the fuck man? Like what are we going to do now? And there's kind of a nervous feeling that you have, which is beautiful, but it just can be really overwhelming. So I always do like an assessment just to see like where people are at. Are they just wanting business help? I love helping people structure. We don't have to have a website, you don't even have to have a website to be a coach in order to get coaching clients. And so I love breaking that down. I've built, I've helped clients built, build their coaching sites and stuff or come up with their content and that kind of thing. But I think my favorite thing to coach coaches on is how to actually hold the client and how to get out of your own way as a coach, to get out of your own ego, to get out of all the nerves of and all the self doubt. I mean that stuff's going to be there. I still get it. I've been working with people for 13 years. I have a backlog of evidence that this works. And I still, every time I get a new client, I'm like, I don't know, we'll see. Like, I don't know. Well, it's a big, you know, it's a, it's a beautiful creation.
Lou: Yeah, I think that that early client feeling like is a really good feeling. Like I would actually, I would caution if you don't feel that at the beginning of it because it just shows like, hey, I really care. I really want to show up for this person. Like I really want this to be what they're signing up for. And I think that little bit of, like, uneasiness, call it nervousness, call it like. Yeah, there's. Yeah, there's like, going on a roller. We don't know. I don't know how this ride's going to feel yet. Right. And we're kind of. And we're about to start the ride, and so I don't really know yet how it's going to feel, but. And then you find a good. You have a good client and you're in a good coaching. And I just. Then it's like. Then it just feels good to drop in again because you know what it's like.
Jessica: Yeah, yeah. And, you know, like. And you know that if you want to go into coaching and you want to work with people like this in any kind of way, you know that you just have a heart for people, you know, and that's like a really important thing to stay connected to. So I think my favorite thing to. To work with other coaches on is how to hold. How to hold the clients. I love talking about the structure of the container. It's like parenting. It's like anyone who's a parent or wants to be a parent someday. Parenting is so much about structure and routine and letting kids know because the world, no matter how old we are, is a big, bad, wide world. And when we're opening up to a new level of consciousness, when we're trying something new, it's very sc. And we need to know what's going on at, like, all the time. And so with little kids, it's like, okay, we're gonna get up in the morning, we're gonna get dressed, we're gonna have breakfast, then we're gonna brush our teeth, Then we're gonna go to school. And then the morning comes, you go, okay, now we're getting dressed, and then we're having breakfast and we're brushing our teeth. Then we're going to school. Okay, now that we've gotten dressed, now we're gonna have breakfast. Like, I know it sounds repetitive, but there's something in setting the container for clients like, this is how it's going to go. I'm going to send you an email. I need. I'm going to give you the checklist. Do your checklist. We're going to take care of business. We're going to settle on our start date. We're going to have our payment plan in place. We're going to. I'm going to give you your pre work to do so that. And I'm breaking it down so that the client can actually digest, like, what's happening. And it's also helping me get to know them so that I can start. I can start setting the room for them and I can start setting the space and I can, you know, start taking care and. And working with who it is that they are and what it is they've come for. And I think that's the funnest thing to work with other coaches on is how to. How to really show up for your clients and get out of your own way so that you can really lift them up, but then also how to get out of your own way when it comes to doing the actual business side of it. And the talking about money with clients and the charging. The charging and the, you know, having boundaries and all of those things, I think, are the biggest things that coaches struggle with. And so that's. That's just really fun for me because I've been through all that struggle and I still go through it sometimes, but it's just. I've built up a greater body of, like, resistance and able to. To bear, you know, just the. The stress of it. So it's not as stressful as it once was. Yeah, that's what I love about it.
Lou: Would you say that that goes hand in hand with how to be a better coach, or would there be, like, different feedback around just being a better, like the growing the skills of your. Your coaching?
Jessica: Yeah, I think it goes, you know, I only. I think the only way to be a better coach is to just keep doing it, is to keep showing up and to keep doing it. And I promise you there's going to be some clients or some situations that are going to feel like epic fails, you know, and. And you're gonna be human, but keep. Keep showing up and keep doing it and stay connected to the heart of why and listen to yourself on it. But I think the. The only way to be a better coach is to. To keep showing up and to hold that high intention, the high intention that you're here to do good work and to support people and the low attachment to, like, how that actually goes so you can be open to the flow.
Lou: That's a big one right there. That, like, I think it could be easy to think, okay, someone's paying a bunch of money like we need, and there's some coaches that would do this, and it's not the style of coaching that I do, but there can be a feeling like we need to get this person a result. And I think that's when we feel that we're actually not being the best coach because it's more about us getting them the results. So noticing like, we feel like we did a good job rather than being fully present, unattached to their result, being fully committed to their result. But if you start getting attached to it now, there's just some like, leaky energy or some blurred lines. And so your job as a coach is to be as present as just mirroring back all. I mean, there's been. Not about all the coaching skills that we can get into, but just really being as caring like you're the biggest difference, I think. And there's a study on this around what makes a therapeutic relationship good. And I would say the same for coaching and why coaching relationships often are profound for people who've only had therapists is because the therapist was seeing x many clients, right? Tons of clients. And then the coach is actually seeing not a lot. And so they really care. They're really like there. And it's that caring, that prior presence that, that someone's in our corner that is like makes 70%, I think it was, or 90% around the. Of what makes a healing relationship or a good relationship in therapy sense was just simply how present was the therapist? Like, how much were they actually felt like they were there with you. And that presence does so much of the work. And you can't be in that presence if you're attached to their outcome. Like, you just.
Jessica: You just thousand percent. Yeah. No, I love that. I love that you just said that because it is so much about the care and because a lot of times, like, I know I've started taking on a few more clients because I've. I've narrowed down my focus to, to do more coaching and less programs. And so now I'm open to more clients. But at the same time, I still only like working with, you know, five or six at one time because then I can really care and then I can really hold them and they know that. And that's important to me. That starts to get lost only because I do, I do care so much, and I can't carry that much that many people at one time in my, in my daily heart and atmosphere. And that's what we do as coaches. We do, we. We carry, we carry people in our heart and our atmosphere when we work with them because we care so much. And I love that you said that because I think that's like the thing to stay the most connected to is how much, how much you care. And it's about the person in front of you and what you think might be the outcome that should be happening might not need to be. You know, a lot of times for them, for the client, it just, they decide that for themselves. And I think that's. I often, I learned this early on. I give my clients homework. I love giving them homework. After every session they go and they work on it for two weeks. And usually the, the homework gets kind of pulled apart and put back together in a different way over the course of a couple weeks. But at the end of every call, at the end of every session I have with a client, I go, okay, so based on what we talked about today, based on what you came with, based on what we uncovered, based on what we explored, what's your homework for the next two weeks? And they have to tell me, they have to tell me what it is they're going to work on. It's not me telling them, you know, and I, and sometimes I'll be like, okay, I know what your homework is, you know, but it's always like, what, How? Like, but if that's not going to work for you, we're not going to do that. And so it has to come from them. That's number one. We're here for them to make the changes.
Lou: It's always better when they decide what that is. Like, you know, I'll have ideas and always brainstorm and stuff, but if there's them deciding it, like it's, it's coming. They, they think of things I wouldn't have thought about and it's more connected. It's, it's way more connected.
Jessica: Totally. Yeah. And it makes it easier as a coach too to support them for sure. Because they said it.
Lou: Yeah. The, the more skilled and the more masterful coaches is, is they. You're actually doing a lot less. Less is more like you're doing a lot less than.
Jessica: Yeah.
Lou: And it's, it seems kind of paradoxical or like, well, what do you mean? Like, but it's. I've seen it and because you're really letting, you're letting their true nature really take over. And that's the, that's the essence. Like, but it comes from. This is stated all the time in my coach trainings and, and just, I mean this is just a kind of a, in the nature of the work that we do on a broader sense is like the biggest factor is your level of growth, unfoldment, presence. Like the. So continuing to do your own work, you, you in essence become a better space holder. In essence, you become A better coach and, and you can only. I really believe that you can only take someone as far as you can go of you have been yourself in, in a. Not like a not necessarily tangible way, but in more of like your own growth and healing. Like if you, you. It's hard to. It's sometimes possible, but it's kind of hard to coach out of your level of unfoldment. And so like continuing to do your work is, is really important.
Jessica: I, I agree with that. And that I would honestly say that again, after 13 years, I've been doing a lot of reflecting and I'm like, wow, it all has felt pretty random for a long time, you know, and even my interests in, in different things, like I went down a, a huge path with like masculine, feminine polarity for a while. And then, you know, a lot of stuff on boundaries and people pleasing and codependency and then a lot of stuff on, like my spiritual practice and a lot of stuff on habits and a lot like parenting. I mean, just like everything across the board, right? And it's all seems so random. I thought, gosh, I'm just so all over the place. I can't niche down. I can't niche down. Why can't I niche down? Because I, I want the full experience. And then I, I get a new client and we start talking or someone comes into my space and I'm. And, and these are the exact things, these are the exact things that are, that are needed and wanted. And I think that's been like such a gift for me to realize, as I know we're often told, niche down, niche down, niche down. And some people are like, I have a friend who's an ADHD ADHD coach and she just loves it and she's zeroed in and locked in, and that's what she does. And for me, I'm like, yeah, I have a lot of friends that have adhd. I've studied a lot of hd. I don't have adhd. But honestly, if I have a client that has adhd, I can track really, really, really well, you know, so it's like kind of as coaches and anyone who wants to help in the world, it does benefit our clients and everyone around us for us to be constantly in our unfolding of whatever's alive for us now. And I do all of this privately. A lot of the work I do is private. I don't share a lot of it online. There's a lot that I work on for myself privately that only my clients really are privy to because you know, we've both chosen into that intimate container, and it's. It's makes sense there. So I love that you. Yeah. That you brought that up.
Lou: My coach, Laura dawn, would say you are the niche. Like, the. Like the fact that you are all those things like, that you don't have to niche down like, that. Your. Your essence is what's like, the niche. Right. So it's like not needing to be this coach or this type of person, although that can help sometimes. And it can be good to. To have those clarifications, for sure. But also realizing that our medicine that we're offering is. Is kind of transcends the specific thing. And people are gonna work with you because they trust you, even though you might be saying online that you do work with these people. Like, I see it all the time. People are. My coaching page is a little bit more directed right now, and still people find me in, like, nothing I say on my coaching page is what they were interested in working on, but. But it's still, like a good. It's still a really good fit. Um, and I'm happy to do that type of coaching on a. On a wider scale, so. Yep. Jessica, thanks for taking the time. Anything. Anything else you want to say to people or send people to. If anything, you're going on, I mean.
Jessica: Thank you for having me. And, yeah, like I said, I, you know, I've kind of really fallen back and I kind of got a little jaded. You and I have talked about this, about coaching for a little while and therapy for a little while, and like, you just kind of the industry, the industrialization of these, healing, you know, these things. But it's been in the last year that I've really fallen back in love with coaching. And it's been with a lot of this reflection that I realize this is such a huge gift and a huge honor, and I'm really grateful to have a skill set and be built for it like I'm made for it. I know I'm made for it. And I've been reminded of that by going through all my ups and downs and rounds and rounds with myself and with the industry. And so, you know, my plug would be, if you're like, the things that I'm sharing here, I'd welcome you to come and book a discovery call for 30 minutes and chat about working together. If you want that intimate experience or something different or just come find me. I'm an insight timer with lou. I have 10 courses over there on really practical relational stuff. So come and get to know me over on Insight Timer or on Instagram and yeah, it'd just be good to connect. And I love, I love you, Lou. And I, I know that anyone who listens to you and is down for the things you talk about are going to be some of my favorite people. So it's just an honor to be here and to be having this conversation. I feel like we could talk all day and we could go back to the start our conversation, which is just like everything existing in the now. We could just go on a trip anytime with anything. So thank you for having me.
Lou: Yeah, super fun. All right, friends, take care. See you next time.
Jessica: Bye.